Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 02-08-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007

Advertisements

One of the verses that universalists like to use as proof of the false doctrine of universalism is 1 Timothy 4:10 ''...who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.''

According to the universalists this verse says that all men will be saved. But that is not the meaning or intent of the passage. The intent of the passage is to show that Christ died for the sins of the entire world, so that those who believe in Christ will be saved. The passage makes it clear that 'BELIEVERS' are in view here. There are numerous passages that show that while God desires that all men be saved, He actually saves only those who have trusted in Christ and His finished and completed work on the Cross for salvation.

For example, Jesus declared...

''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

And

''Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come unto judgment, but has passed out of death into life.'' (John 5:24)

The Apostle John wrote...

''The one who BELIEVES in the Son of God has the witness in himself, the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 11) And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12) He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'' (1 John 5:10-12)

Regarding 1 Timothy 4, David Guzik said;

quote
''It isn't that all men are saved in an universalist sense, but that there is only one Savior for all men, it isn't as if Christians have one Savior and others might have another Savior. But notice Pauls point: especially of those who believe. Jesus' work is adequate to save all, but only effective in saving those who come to Him by faith. (1 Timothy 4).
unquote

John MacArthur said...

quote
''Pauls point is not that He actually saves the whole world (for that would be universalism, and Scripture clearly teaches not all will be saved.) The point is that He is the only Savior to whom anyone in the world can turn for forgiveness and eternal life--and therefore He urges all to embrace Him as Savior. Jesus Christ is proffered to the world as Savior.''
unquote
(Master's Seminary Journal Volume 7. Spring 1996)

In John 14:6 'Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.''

Acts 4:12 states, ''And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under Heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.''

Adam Clarke wrote in his commentary...

quote
''What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world, and tasted death for every man. As all have been purchased by his blood so that all may believe, and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault.
unquote

Christ died for all (He is the Savior of all men ;1 Tim. 4:10) in order that 'whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.'

 
Old 02-08-2010, 10:18 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,709,492 times
Reputation: 913
To bad these men are not considering all the other 700 plus scriptures that speak of what 1 Tim 4:10 summarizes in so many words.

Paul never said what these men you quote said. By the way, 1 tim 4:10 does not use the word Christ or Jesus, it uses God. God is the savior of all men. If Paul was making reference to the fact that salvation comes only through Christ for all that are saved he sure chose a funny way of saying it. As a matter of fact paul uses this exact same language in two more cases ... And in each it is obvious what he means ...


2Ti 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.



Did paul mean that he only potentially wanted timothy to bring all his books, but really only the partchments?



Gal 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.



Did Paul mean that we should only potentially be good to all men, but really only to those of the household of faith?



1Ti 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.



Did Paul mean we should only potentially doubly honor the elders that rule well, but really only those who labour in the word and doctrine?


...............


God will have all people to be saved ... 1Ti 2:4

God will accomplish all his desire ... Isa 55:11

God works all things out according to his own Council ... Eph 1:11

God is the savior of all men ... 1Ti 4:10

God will reconcile all things to himself through Christ ... Col 1:20

God will gather together in one all things in Christ ... Eph 1:10

All people will joyously and willingly confess Christ is lord and bow to Christ ... Phl 2:11

If anyone confess Christ is lord they will be saved ... Rom 10:9

No one can confess Christ is lord but by the spirit of God ... 1 Cor 12:3


Just for starters ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-08-2010 at 10:28 PM..
 
Old 02-08-2010, 10:24 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,413 posts, read 2,452,704 times
Reputation: 640
1 Timothy 4:10, which in the KJV reads, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

Does this verse teach that those who die without faith in Christ are also saved? Not at all. Notice that the verse does not say that God is the "Savior of all men, including those that believe." The text makes a distinction between the believer and the unbeliever by using the word "specially" (especially). It is translated from the Greek word malista. The Strong's dictionary defines malista as "most (in the greatest degree) or particularly; chiefly most of all." The use of this word tells us that God saves all men in some ways, but God saves believers "in the greatest degree." Thankfully, Scripture teaches us how God is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 10:33 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,709,492 times
Reputation: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
1 Timothy 4:10, which in the KJV reads, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

Does this verse teach that those who die without faith in Christ are also saved? Not at all. Notice that the verse does not say that God is the "Savior of all men, including those that believe." The text makes a distinction between the believer and the unbeliever by using the word "specially" (especially). It is translated from the Greek word malista. The Strong's dictionary defines malista as "most (in the greatest degree) or particularly; chiefly most of all." The use of this word tells us that God saves all men in some ways, but God saves believers "in the greatest degree." Thankfully, Scripture teaches us how God is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.
The word especially mean "more so", not "only" ... How is God the savior of believers "more so" than of those that do not believe? Because he has chosen those of us that believe and he has elected us to know him and have life now in the ages through the faith he has given us in his son. He is "more so" the savior of believers because we will reign with him a thousand years as his bride and body in the world.

If i said ... "I like all ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream" ... What would you think that i meant by it? That i only liked chocolate ice cream?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-08-2010 at 10:59 PM..
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:09 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
To bad these men are not considering all the other 700 plus scriptures that speak of what 1 Tim 4:10 summarizes in so many words.

Paul never said what these men you quote said. By the way, 1 tim 4:10 does not use the word Christ or Jesus, it uses God. God is the savior of all men. If Paul was making reference to the fact that salvation comes only through Christ for all that are saved he sure chose a funny way of saying it. As a matter of fact paul uses this exact same language in two more cases ... And in each it is obvious what he means ...


2Ti 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.



Did paul mean that he only potentially wanted timothy to bring all his books, but really only the partchments?



Gal 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.



Did Paul mean that we should only potentially be good to all men, but really only to those of the household of faith?



1Ti 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.



Did Paul mean we should only potentially doubly honor the elders that rule well, but really only those who labour in the word and doctrine?


...............


God will have all people to be saved ... 1Ti 2:4

God will accomplish all his desire ... Isa 55:11

God works all things out according to his own Council ... Eph 1:11

God is the savior of all men ... 1Ti 4:10

God will reconcile all things to himself through Christ ... Col 1:20

God will gather together in one all things in Christ ... Eph 1:10

All people will joyously and willingly confess Christ is lord and bow to Christ ... Phl 2:11

If anyone confess Christ is lord they will be saved ... Rom 10:9

No one can confess Christ is lord but by the spirit of God ... 1 Cor 12:3


Just for starters ...
Jesus Christ IS God. And it is stressed throughout the Bible that it is faith specificallly in Jesus Christ (The Messiah) that saves. Faith in God the Father or in God the Holy Spirit does not save anyone. The requirement is to believe in Christ.

Universalists conveniently ignore verses such as John 3:16, John 3:36, Acts 16:31, John 5:24, John 14:6, Acts 4:12. To the universalist it's like those passages don't exist.

The issue is clear, it is plain. It is stated repeatedly. Salvation is dependent on faith in Christ and apart from faith in Christ, no one is saved. And the opportunity for salvation is limited to the time between physical birth and physical death. After that, it is too late.

2 Corinthians 6:2 'For He says, ''At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you''; behold, now is ''The acceptable time, behold, now is ''the day of salvation.''


Hebrews 9:27 ''And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.

Anyone reading this thread is urged in the strongest possible terms to not be deceived by these universalists. Universalism is a Satanic attempt to lull people into a false sense of security concerning eternal salvation. The Bible is explicit on the urgency, the necessity of placing your faith, your trust, your confidence, in Jesus Christ in order to be saved from the eternal lake of fire. It is Satan's desire to prevent whoever he may from understanding the absolute importance of believing in Christ for salvation. And therefore he has introduced into the world the heresy of universalism. And he has deceived many as can be seen by the universalists on this forum. And some of these are perhaps not merely themselves deceived, but possibly know that what they are saying is false, and are purposely attempting to deceive who they may. This then, makes them wolves in sheeps clothing.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The word especially mean "more so", not "only" ... How is God the savior of believers "more so" than of those that do not believe? Because he has chosen those of us that believe and he has elected us to know him and have life now in the ages through the faith he has given us in his son. He is "more so" the savior of believers because we will reign with him a thousand years as his bride and body in the world.

If i said ... "I like all ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream" ... What would you think that i meant by it? That i only liked chocolate ice cream?
The issue is this and this alone.

John 3:36. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; BUT he who does NOT obey (the command to believe) the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM. (Forever).

The contrast in John 3:36 is between those who have eternal life through faith in Christ, and those who shall not see life because of unbelief. It is stated with absolute clarity and without any room for misinterpretation.
 
Old 02-08-2010, 11:42 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,709,492 times
Reputation: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ IS God. And it is stressed throughout the Bible that it is faith specificallly in Jesus Christ (The Messiah) that saves. Faith in God the Father or in God the Holy Spirit does not save anyone. The requirement is to believe in Christ.

Universalists conveniently ignore verses such as John 3:16, John 3:36, Acts 16:31, John 5:24, John 14:6, Acts 4:12. To the universalist it's like those passages don't exist.
No sir, that is a bold faced lie ... Christian universalists do not teach that you can be saved without believing in and confessing Christ is Lord. We believe and teach that one must believe in Christ and confess Christ is lord, and we believe and teach that everybody will one day confess Christ is lord willingly and joyously and will bow before him in worship as it is written ...

Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess(exomologeō - to confess willingly and joyously, to celebrate, give praise to) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What you and those who believe the way you do teach is that one has to believe before they die to be saved ... We deny this as being utterly erroneous and without scriptural basis ... Christ Conquers death, not the other way around as you teach.

Quote:
The issue is clear, it is plain. It is stated repeatedly. Salvation is dependent on faith in Christ and apart from faith in Christ, no one is saved. And the opportunity for salvation is limited to the time between physical birth and physical death. After that, it is too late.
You have no scripture which says this, you are simply adding to scripture. Write a new bible and maybe you can convince others of this lie ... As it is the bible we have does not say this in one place ...

Quote:
2 Corinthians 6:2 'For He says, ''At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you''; behold, now is ''The acceptable time, behold, now is ''the day of salvation.''


Hebrews 9:27 ''And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
Yes and these verses say nothing about having to believe before you die in order to be saved ... If you want us to believe you have to believe before you die please provide a scripture that says so. Hebrew 9:27 doesn't say that ...


Quote:
Anyone reading this thread is urged in the strongest possible terms to not be deceived by these universalists. Universalism is a Satanic attempt to lull people into a false sense of security concerning eternal salvation. The Bible is explicit on the urgency, the necessity of placing your faith, your trust, your confidence, in Jesus Christ in order to be saved from the eternal lake of fire. It is Satan's desire to prevent whoever he may from understanding the absolute importance of believing in Christ for salvation. And therefore he has introduced into the world the heresy of universalism. And he has deceived many as can be seen by the universalists on this forum. And some of these are perhaps not merely themselves deceived, but possibly know that what they are saying is false, and are purposely attempting to deceive who they may. This then, makes them wolves in sheeps clothing.
Anyone who is reading this thread please note that mike cannot quote one single scripture that says you have to believe before you die in order to be saved. Also please note that he cannot quote a single verse that says you have to believe before judgment in order to be saved. His teaching about these things is based purely on the traditional fundamentalist teachings of men and have no basis in scripture ...
 
Old 02-09-2010, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,397,835 times
Reputation: 427
Ironmaw, you are mistaken. It has been proven over and over again that the Universalist takes this verse right out of its context, and applies it to its paradigm, incorrectly, and eisegetically. Stop hiding behind the veil of "purification in the lake of fire" curtain. It is pure rhetoric.

It is a ongoing exercise of the Universalist. No wonder it was deemed a heresy. Rightly so.
And will continue to be one as long as it keeps preaching another gospel other than the one Christ and the apostles taught.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,397,835 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Anyone who is reading this thread please note that mike cannot quote one single scripture that says you have to believe before you die in order to be saved. Also please note that he cannot quote a single verse that says you have to believe before judgment in order to be saved. His teaching about these things is based purely on the traditional fundamentalist teachings of men and have no basis in scripture ...
Don't worry I will:

John 11 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Col 2 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:...And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:....And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


I expect you to read all of Colosians too. And Ironmaw, your theology of Purification in fire is NOWHERE in the scriptures....Nowhere, unless you rip another verse out of its context again, which I am sure you will.
UR is a Bold Faced Lie without a leg to stand...like I said, no wonder the council deemed it a heresy.
 
Old 02-09-2010, 02:22 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
No sir, that is a bold faced lie ... Christian universalists do not teach that you can be saved without believing in and confessing Christ is Lord. We believe and teach that one must believe in Christ and confess Christ is lord, and we believe and teach that everybody will one day confess Christ is lord willingly and joyously and will bow before him in worship as it is written ...

Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess(exomologeō - to confess willingly and joyously, to celebrate, give praise to) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
To the contrary. At some point before being cast into the lake of fire, every unbeliever will be forced to acknowledge that Christ is the Lord that they rejected. But it will not be for their salvation. It will be an acknowledgment of their fatal error.

I will address this passage in its own thread at a later date.

Quote:
What you and those who believe the way you do teach is that one has to believe before they die to be saved ... We deny this as being utterly erroneous and without scriptural basis ... Christ Conquers death, not the other way around as you teach.

You have no scripture which says this, you are simply adding to scripture. Write a new bible and maybe you can convince others of this lie ... As it is the bible we have does not say this in one place ...

Yes and these verses say nothing about having to believe before you die in order to be saved ... If you want us to believe you have to believe before you die please provide a scripture that says so. Hebrew 9:27 doesn't say that ...
First of all, the fact that there are any verses at all that tell of the necessity of believing means that there are those who are not going to believe. The fact that John 3:36 distinguishes between those who will believe in Christ and will have eternal life from those who will NOT believe in Christ and therefore shall not see life means that there are those who will never believe. They are lost forever. As the verse says.

The fact that Matthew 25:41 says ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels, 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'', means that there is a time when the opportunity to accept God's offer of salvation is terminated.

The fact that Matthew 7:23 says ''And then I will declare to them, 'I NEVER knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness' (Unbelievers being ordered to depart into the lake of fire.), means that the unbelievers time to believe in Christ for salvation has passed.

And the two verses I already gave, Hebrews 9:27 and 2 Corinthians 6:2 make it clear that the time of salvation is NOW. After you die it is too late.




Quote:
Anyone who is reading this thread please note that mike cannot quote one single scripture that says you have to believe before you die in order to be saved. Also please note that he cannot quote a single verse that says you have to believe before judgment in order to be saved. His teaching about these things is based purely on the traditional fundamentalist teachings of men and have no basis in scripture ...
Childish.


Matthew 7:13 makes it clear that only a few will be saved in comparison to the many who will be lost. ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter (destruction) by it. 14) For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.'' That passage means exactly what it says. Many will spend eternity in the lake of fire, and few will find eternal life.

Revelation 20:7:15 are crystal clear on the eternal fate of both Satan and unbelievers.

Last edited by Michael Way; 02-09-2010 at 02:35 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top