Seems like the topic of universalism is dominating this forum, so... (hell, punishment)
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I'm curious, why is so important to either side to believe or not believe it? Would this warrant a modern day Nicene Council to settle the matter?
I don't think any modern day Nicene Council will settle the matter. People need to read and study the scriptures for themselves.
Now I understand you aren't a believer Insane, but essentially here is the debate in a nutshell:
-- Eternal Torment
Turn to Christ or you will burn forever. We all actually deserve to burn forever anyway. God created us this way. But its really Adam's fault. He messed up God's plan. But God is still sovereign. God loves you (except for the burning part)... which is why Christ suffered eternally on our behalf (except it was only for 3 days).
Obviously this decision to come to Christ should be the most important thing we focus on, as it determine's ones eternal fate. So depending on whether you lean towards Arminian (free-will) or Calvinist (predestined) beliefs, this life is either for: 1. having enough chances so that you come to your senses and are lucky/smart enough to make the right choice, or 2. just for show as God has already chosen who is going to burn forever. So either God can't save all or He doesn't want to save all. Neither is a pretty (nor biblical IMHO) picture of God.
Universal Salvation
God loves all, and will bring all people to Him, through Jesus Christ. This is not a free ride, people will still reap what they sow. In fact God uses this law of reaping and sowing to teach people righteousness (obviously no one has done anything of an eternal magnitude, so no one will receive an eternal punishment). Ultimately this is for a good purpose as God uses this method to teach us right from wrong, to teach us how to be humble, kind, patient, enduring, selfless, and loving. That is the purpose for this world.
All of the wrongs of this world will be corrected when God restores and reconciles all things. People will feel shame for what they have done, and this will lead to repentance for all, and ultimately all will be healed and saved.
--
Since you don't believe in God, this probably doesn't matter much to you either way. But perhaps you can see why the debate is so polarized... the reason why it matters is because one side shows purpose for God's judgments in harmony with God's love and the other side degrade's the character of God to that of an unjust monstrous tyrant. (Hmm, am I biased? )
Another reason why UR vs. ET dominates here is because UR is a banned topic at many (most?) Christian forums. This is a good place to debate it, and UR is not going away.
I wonder why there appear only so few annihilationists, they should both reject the doctrine of everlasting torment as it maligns the name of God and is a terrible blasphemy and also universalism, for it might be a dangerous heresy and a matter of everlasting life or death from an annihilationist point of view.
The reason why I contribute much to the discussions is that I thoroughly examined the matter and feel responsible to share the knowledge I gained, as God gave me this understanding I feel responsible to defend what is truth in my conviction and share my understanding for it is a gift from God.
I think it is better to discuss UR publically than in "our cellars" where we are alone with those who share our faith, in this way we can present a different understanding and fight against superstition and misinformation that everybody may judge for himself who speaks the truth and who not.
I'm curious, why is so important to either side to believe or not believe it? Would this warrant a modern day Nicene Council to settle the matter?
Yes! A new council. After a simple vote, if ETrs lose they will be killed and thrown into the valley of Gehenna. If URs lose they will be sent to theological rehab in the Bahamas.
The reason why I contribute much to the discussions is that I thoroughly examined the matter and feel responsible to share the knowledge I gained, as God gave me this understanding I feel responsible to defend what is truth in my conviction and share my understanding for it is a gift from God.
I think it is better to discuss UR publically than in "our cellars" where we are alone with those who share our faith, in this way we can present a different understanding and fight against superstition and misinformation that everybody may judge for himself who speaks the truth and who not.
Of course it is...and I agree with you. It should be discussed, but it should also be discussed by the council once again, so that, with our advances in lingual interpretation, it can be rightly discerned again whether it is a heresy or not.
For me, UR is another failed attempt of futurism. God has already reconciled His people, His creation of righteousness and communion, is in Christ. Anyone outside of that category, are exlcuded, therefore inclusive theology is a moot point.
Personally, what UR and many other sects fail to recognize, is the kingdom of God will continue to increase, which alone discredits UR's premise of all are already saved. Isaiah said this, then it is obvious that the kingdom is not full of everyone, but on the move of increasing progression.
I'm curious, why is so important to either side to believe or not believe it? Would this warrant a modern day Nicene Council to settle the matter?
People believe the way they do because they are comfortable and has been handed down through generations. Anything outside of that comfort zone is wrong. If everyone looked at all religions and that they all worship the same God, albeit by different names, conflict would end. Until each of these people die in their beliefs, they will not know what is true or not unless they open themselves up to other interpretations.
In my own experiences, it's better to know a little about them all and not a lot about one. It's easier to find what is real and what is not.
No Nicene council as they really don't know what is real or not either.
For me, UR is another failed attempt of futurism. God has already reconciled His people, His creation of righteousness and communion, is in Christ. Anyone outside of that category, are exlcuded, therefore inclusive theology is a moot point.
Personally, what UR and many other sects fail to recognize, is the kingdom of God will continue to increase, which alone discredits UR's premise of all are already saved. Isaiah said this, then it is obvious that the kingdom is not full of everyone, but on the move of increasing progression.
Just to clarify then, do you believe Christians (and all people) have already been purified?
I don't think any modern day Nicene Council will settle the matter. People need to read and study the scriptures for themselves.
Now I understand you aren't a believer Insane, but essentially here is the debate in a nutshell:
-- Eternal Torment
Turn to Christ or you will burn forever. We all actually deserve to burn forever anyway. God created us this way. But its really Adam's fault. He messed up God's plan. But God is still sovereign. God loves you (except for the burning part)... which is why Christ suffered eternally on our behalf (except it was only for 3 days).
Obviously this decision to come to Christ should be the most important thing we focus on, as it determine's ones eternal fate. So depending on whether you lean towards Arminian (free-will) or Calvinist (predestined) beliefs, this life is either for: 1. having enough chances so that you come to your senses and are lucky/smart enough to make the right choice, or 2. just for show as God has already chosen who is going to burn forever. So either God can't save all or He doesn't want to save all. Neither is a pretty (nor biblical IMHO) picture of God.
Universal Salvation
God loves all, and will bring all people to Him, through Jesus Christ. This is not a free ride, people will still reap what they sow. In fact God uses this law of reaping and sowing to teach people righteousness (obviously no one has done anything of an eternal magnitude, so no one will receive an eternal punishment). Ultimately this is for a good purpose as God uses this method to teach us right from wrong, to teach us how to be humble, kind, patient, enduring, selfless, and loving. That is the purpose for this world.
All of the wrongs of this world will be corrected when God restores and reconciles all things. People will feel shame for what they have done, and this will lead to repentance for all, and ultimately all will be healed and saved.
--
Since you don't believe in God, this probably doesn't matter much to you either way. But perhaps you can see why the debate is so polarized... the reason why it matters is because one side shows purpose for God's judgments in harmony with God's love and the other side degrade's the character of God to that of an unjust monstrous tyrant. (Hmm, am I biased? )
Legoman pretty much hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better.
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