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It's easy, God is everywhere just as the scripture says. We can't be everywhere. God is everywhere, but yet God says we can't escape His presence, but yet we don't feel Him all the time. God can be right next to a person and He remove the feeling of His presence from the person. Well scripture shows this all the time.
The scripture says draw near to God and He will draw near to Him. Well how can we draw near to God if He is always near us and we always in His presence....... God says we can't escape His presence, but He didn't say we would sense or feel His presence all the time. Well we draw near to Him in a sense of worship, spending time with Him, etc.......
When we feel God presence, God doesn't just pop up on the seen, He was always there, we may have not have felt Him, but God says there is no where we can go to run away from Him or hide where He is not.
This seens like a simple thing to see how God could do this. I mean God is all powerful and can do what ever He wants to do. That may very well be remove sence of someone feeling His presence, when He never left their side. This is how I see it. I also believe that God can withdraw Himself from a person that do what God said we can do that will cause Him to withdraw, Himself from us. Now when I say withdraw, I don't mean leave as in walk away, I mean removing our ability to sense He is near us. Thus seeing in scripture where you have those who would pray for God to remove them out of their feeling emtpy from not feeling Him near them.
NO, God can not be somewhere, because scripture says so. God can cast you out of His presence and He still be there. All He has to do is remove your sense of feeling His presence, without Him ever moving.
In God's presence, He is allowing you to experience who He is, feel His love for you, but if God removes that from you that is what He takes away from you. Do you ever wonder why those in scripture who experienced the Lord in a mighty way, when they didn't feel His presence, they were often cast down, depressed, prayed for Him to return. But anyway I may be on here for a little while longer, tired.
I see what you are trying to say.. however what is the purpose of God removing himself from someone even though he is really right there?
What good would having or not having God's presence do after death? I mean if he is really there in hell with you but has blocked you from sensing it then he is still watching you suffer in eternal fiery torment... How is that in line with his character?
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
Isaiah 42:16 "I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone."
Isaiah 65:24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
God declares his creation is precious to him. His children in fact. Yet what you state about him is utterly impossible to understand when you read these type of verses. Wouldn't you say?
Actually you are right, that is a typo. I didn't mean to put they will not learn the earth. I should have just copied and pasted the scripture. I use the NKJV
Isaiah 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
I don't believe that everyone will learn righteouness, because the scripture says that the wicked will not learn it, in verse 10
No it says that if they are shown favour they will not learn righteousness - it says that the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness from judgment. After judgment comes favour/mercy.
No it says that if they are shown favour they will not learn righteousness - it says that the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness from judgment. After judgment comes favour/mercy.
NO, my verse says grace, yours faith, this doesn't change what the scripture is saying.
Isaiah 26:9-10
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
The inhabitants of the earth doesn't mean everyone, thus we see the wicked not learning.
When speaking about the inhabitants of the earth, that doesn't mean everyone. As we see in Isaiah 26:20-21 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
So, we see here the scripture says the inhabitants of the earth is being punished for their iniquity, but everyone is not being punished. In the beginning we see come my people, enter your chambers, Hide yourself as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. So, we see here there are some who are not having to endure this punishment even though the inhabitants of the earth are being punished.
So, this shows in Isaiah 26:9........... the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness is not speaking about everyone as we see in the scripture above.
I see what you are trying to say.. however what is the purpose of God removing himself from someone even though he is really right there?
What good would having or not having God's presence do after death? I mean if he is really there in hell with you but has blocked you from sensing it then he is still watching you suffer in eternal fiery torment... How is that in line with his character?
"The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17
Isaiah 42:16 "I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone."
Isaiah 65:24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
God declares his creation is precious to him. His children in fact. Yet what you state about him is utterly impossible to understand when you read these type of verses. Wouldn't you say?
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I see what you are trying to say.. however what is the purpose of God removing himself from someone even though he is really right there?
Can we honestly answer everything about God and why He does everything?
But scripture gives us an example of why He did when dealing with people.
Sin and trials. We see this in scripture. Look at Cain (Genesis 4:13-14). He killed his brother. A curse was placed on him, he became a fugitive and a vagabond. But Cain says You have driven me out from the face of the ground, I shall be hidden from Your face (this was God's presence). Normally during that time, a murderer had to flee to another town if they killed someone, to stop from being killed.
So, He is saying I am being driven from the face of this ground, the area where He lived, and I shall be hidden from your face, meaning to not feel God presence. This was due to the sin that he commited. If he didn't this would have never happend.
(Genesis 4:16) Then cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. Cains sin caused Him to be driven out from the Lord presence.
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What good would having or not having God's presence do after death? I mean if he is really there in hell with you but has blocked you from sensing it then he is still watching you suffer in eternal fiery torment... How is that in line with his character?
That is the point of the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire was created for punishment. God is the one who created the Lake of Fire, He is the one that saves everyone who believes in the Son, shall have life. So, if God is placing life at your footsteps, but you refuse, your choice placed you in the Lake of Fire. So, does this make God's character looked bad, I don't think so.I know that if I don't come to the one that has life, then the second death will await me due to my choice, thus placing me where God said a person would go if they didn't come to Him.
Job didn't sin. God even said He was blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? (Job 1:8) But yet God allows for Job to be tested by Satan. While reading the book of Job while He is going through his trials, we don't see Job experiencing the presence of God. Surely he would have experience this before, because God called him blameless. God finally speaks to Job in chapter 38 and on. So, it doesn't have to be sin for God to remove His presence from a person. He does what He sees fit to do.
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God declares his creation is precious to him. His children in fact. Yet what you state about him is utterly impossible to understand when you read these type of verses. Wouldn't you say?[/
God does love His creation, I never said that He didn't. What I am saying is not of my own words, I got them from scripture.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
God loves His children and provided a way for them to have life. The scripture says whoever believes in Him should not perish. So, this tells me if anyone does not they will perish, due to their own foolishness.
Now is this not what you consider a warning that you say that you see?
So, why would any say that God is being unjust when He provided a way for you to have life, but yet the person doesn't believe or come to the person to give them that life. That is ignorance on the persons part, not God.
Lets say I am your teacher and I tell you that if you walk out of class, you will be exspelled from school and not allowed to come back. But yet you ignore my prompts and my warnings and you get up and walk out of class. Now, you are exspelled from school due to your choice of doing what I said not to do. Now who is at fault and who did wrong, well you did? I gave you the rules, prompts and even told you what would happend if you did what I said to not do, which would result in you getting kicked out of school. This is how people treat God, they ignore His rules, His prompts, warnings, disobey, turn, we even read that some curse God. So, hey if they choose to speak against the one that could destroy them, oh foolish they will be.
So, to me I don't get why people have a hard time with seeing that people are at fault for their own choice.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-13-2010 at 12:23 AM..
Miss Shawn how hard is it for your confession to change and glorify God by saying "He caused you to believe" and "He caused me to repent" and "He opened my eyes to see ? .
Tell me why the emphasis of your confession and what you share is strongly based on you believing rather than God bringing you to faith ?. I cannot be comfortable with agreeing with your confession , his spirit in me causes me to acknowledge it's all him and nothing of me , i cannot say i drew near , i cannot say i chose him, i cannot say i found him ,i cannot say i sought him, i cannot say i repented without him causing me to , i just cannot do it , this has nothing to do with UR , i believed this from Day one.
Yes it does say draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Your whole foundation is based on responding to God rather than God creating and working in our hearts first which flesh and blood can never make happen or see , it takes a revelation from God.
Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: When he says no man that means believer and unbeliever
15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. Luke 24 verse 15
Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.Luke 19 verse 9
When Jesus was at the well it was no coincidence, when he delivered the man from demon possesion it was no coincidence he took the boat over there , it's all about God seeking us out and not the other way round
It begins with God and ends with him
30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Thentheir eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
These 2 guys who were with Jesus a few days early knew who Jesus was , this day they didn't , it takes a revelation from God to see and believe who God really is , no matter how much effort in trying to believe will never cut it unless God as opened our eyes, otherwise our faith will be in own faith just like the Fundy's .
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,cand on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.
The rock He is building his church upon is a revelation of himself , which though you Fundy's thinkyou can just open the pages of the bible and see , can only be revealed by our Father in heaven.
Miss Shawn how hard is it for your confession to change and glorify God by saying "He caused you to believe" and "He caused me to repent" and "He opened my eyes to see ? .
Tell me why the emphasis of your confession and what you share is strongly based on you believing rather than God bringing you to faith ?. I cannot be comfortable with agreeing with your confession , his spirit in me causes me to acknowledge it's all him and nothing of me , i cannot say i drew near , i cannot say i chose him, i cannot say i found him ,i cannot say i sought him, i cannot say i repented without him causing me to , i just cannot do it , this has nothing to do with UR , i believed this from Day one.
Yes it does say draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Your whole foundation is based on responding to God rather than God creating and working in our hearts first which flesh and blood can never make happen or see , it takes a revelation from God.
Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: When he says no man that means believer and unbeliever
15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. Luke 24 verse 15
Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.Luke 19 verse 9
When Jesus was at the well it was no coincidence, when he delivered the man from demon possesion it was no coincidence he took the boat over there , it's all about God seeking us out and not the other way round
It begins with God and ends with him
30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Thentheir eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
These 2 guys who were with Jesus a few days early knew who Jesus was , this day they didn't , it takes a revelation from God to see and believe who God really is , no matter how much effort in trying to believe will never cut it unless God as opened our eyes, otherwise our faith will be in own faith just like the Fundy's .
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,cand on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.
The rock He is building his church upon is a revelation of himself , which though you Fundy's thinkyou can just open the pages of the bible and see , can only be revealed by our Father in heaven.
How hard is it for you to accept my answer and stop by trying to twist my arm into believing what you believe. That will never happen.
I will answer your question for the millionth time. God lead me to repent, and I made the choice to turn from my sin. That is what the scripture says, God leads us to repent. If you don't believe that then that is your choice and error.
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Yes it does say draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Your whole foundation is based on responding to God rather than God creating and working in our hearts first which flesh and blood can never make happen or see , it takes a revelation from God.
It seems you are lost and have no idea what we were talking about. We were talking about the presence of God, not responding to God. Pcamps I am not going around the world with you today.
God lead me to repent, and I made the choice to turn from my sin. That is what the scripture says, God leads us to repent. If you don't believe that then that is your choice and error.
Goodbye
So God's choice had nothing to do with your salvation then ? it was your choice ?
I would like a scripture where it says we out of our choice chose him.
I know you were also talking about the presence of God but you were also talking about choice , and on this point which i believe is vital , the scriptures tell us otherwise.
So God's choice had nothing to do with your salvation then ? it was your choice ?
I would like a scripture where it says we out of our choice chose him.
I know you were also talking about the presence of God but you were also talking about choice , and on this point which i believe is vital , the scriptures tell us otherwise.
Verses in opposition to Human Choice in believing:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
So God's choice had nothing to do with your salvation then ? it was your choice ?
I would like a scripture where it says we out of our choice chose him.
I know you were also talking about the presence of God but you were also talking about choice , and on this point which i believe is vital , the scriptures tell us otherwise.
Pcamps your doctrine or whatever you believe has nothing to do with me and how God came to me.
I didn't say God had nothing to do with my salvation, you didn't ask me that.
I didn't have anything to do with my salvation, I already established this with you before, but you keep asking the same question and keep projecting what you think I believe all the time.
God lead me to repent, He didn't make me, He didn't beat me, He lead me to repent, God didn't make me make the choice to repent. It was my choice if I turned from my sin or not. Once I made the choice to turn from my sin after God leading me to repent, He did and does the rest. If you can't understand that then that is your problem and not mine.
God doesn't have a problem because He is the one that says, repent and turn from your wicked ways. So, what you say or do is on you.
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I would like a scripture where it says we out of our choice chose him.
Well, if you would like to see it then make it up yourself. I never said anything about us chosing Him. A person can chose to worship the devil or worship God, for this is in scripture, those who are not written in the Book of Life are shown to marvel the beast. Now you mean to tell me if they didn't have a choice, God would chose for them to not be written in the book of life and then chose for them to marvel at the beast. Get read Pcamps and stop trying to push your belief onto me. That has nothing to do with our choice.
Book of Life: Revelation 13:1-10 speaks of the beast and the people that worship him. The beast was given authority to rule for forty two month. Also notice what it says about those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of Life. 13:7, it was granted to him to make war against the saints and to over come them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear, if they don't they will be judged and thrown in the Lake of fire. Book of Life: 17:8 We see again whose names that are not written in this book will marvel over the beast. Book of Life: 20:15 anyone not written in the book of life thrown in the Lake of Fire. And once again Rev. 20:12
You don't believe that people have the ability to have a choice, but that is your doctrine and has nothing to do with me.
You said something in the effect there was a time when somepeople came to you or something and you didn't repent. I don't remember everything that you said, and don't have time to search the thread to find it, I am about to leave the house. But to me you made the choice to not repent at that time, but yet you say the time wasn't right or set yet. Well, that is your thing and not mine.
What I believe is you made the choice at that time to not repent. What ever you say is your thing and I don't see that being done in scripture. I see in scripture people who didn't repent, God didn't force them to repent and some people are even experiencing the wrath of God from the bowls of judgement and the scripture still say they don't repent. They were making the choice to repent. You keep your doctrine, and I will keep what I see in scripture.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-13-2010 at 02:56 PM..
Verses in opposition to Human Choice in believing:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Amen Kat
If we read the scriptures like a book we will certainly think we had something to do with our own salvation , but if we read it by the spirit we will be left with no doubt he's behind all that he maybe all in all.
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