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This is a reply to some questions posed to me from a friend on Youtube regarding mans free will vs. Gods sovereignty ... I thought it would provide intersting matterial for discussion here as well ...
Isaiah 45:7 ~ KJV ~ I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace(shalowm), and create evil(ra`): I the LORD do all these things.
Consider the Hebrew word here translated "evil" as well as the word peace ...
Ra` is the same word used in the phrase "tree of knowledge of good and evil" ...
Gen 2:9
and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good(towb) and evil(ra`).
So how ever you wish to translate the word "ra`" in that verse it is nevertheless the same evil that is understood by the eating of the tree, and thius the same evil which brings about sin ...
"Ra`" is also the same word found in many passages that speak of the evil men do which is a transgression against god. Such as in ...
1Ki 15:34
and he doth the evil thing(ra`) in the eyes of Jehovah, and walketh in the way of Jeroboam, and in his sin that he caused Israel to sin.
Now to answer you question about the polarization of the words peace(shalowm) and evil(ra`) in Isaiah 45:7, the reason why god does not say that he creates good(towb) is because God himself is good(towb) ... Good is not a created quality but is instead eternal in that God himself is Good and is eternal. So god creates peace and evil, but not good.
nevertheless evil in this verse is the same evil that we understand as being the beginning of sin.
Look at this verse again ...
Pro 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Look at all the various translations of this passage and they all pretty much say the same thing ... That being that God created wickedness or wicked people for the purpose or for the day/time of evil ...
So he hardened Pharaohs heart to do evil, and he hated Esau(Of course god does not hate anyone, he loved us while we were yet enemies, but he elected and preferred Isac) before he was ever born. That is to say God fashioned both pharaoh and Esau as wicked people for the purpose of the time of evil they manifested in their own lives.
Thus Paul writes ...
Rom 9:19-24
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
God created evil and fashioned some vessels of wrath unto dishonor ... And he longsuffers the vessels of wrath in order to shew the riches of his glory unto the vessels of mercy ... That is to say we couldn't truly know the goodness of God without knowing evil ... And the truth will be revealed in the fullness of times concerning the vastness of the goodness of God when he shows mercy even unto the vessels of wrath. Yes he will show his wrath in order to makes his power known on the vessels of wrath, but he will not always be wroth(Isaiah 47:16).
Isaiah 47:16
For I will not contend for ever, <<neither will I be always wroth>> : for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Gods anger will not last for ever but his mercies will always endure ... This is a very difficult thing for people to understand. The reason why God is not himself evil for creating evil is because evil is necessary ion order for us to know good and thus in order for us to know God. However if God did intend to always be angry at the vessels of wrath and did not intend to heal them and restore comforts unto them then indeed he himself would also be evil. But God does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, but it pleases him that they should repent and be saved.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
That is the purpose for the fiery judgments of God, to purify the wicked ...
Mal 3:2-4
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
And thus it is written that those who have no good works will be saved on the foundation of Christ but only by first passing through the fire ...
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Many Christians will say 1Cr 3:15 is speaking only of Christians with no good works, or that these are Christians who have not made(converted) other Christians ... But according to the parables of the wicked servants, the christian with no good works is a wicked servant who will be allotted his portion(fate) with the unbelievers(Luk 12:46). So if the wicked Christians(servants) are saved by fire that is also the fate of unbelievers. However 1Cr 3:15 is not just talking about Christians anyway, as Paul wrote every mans works will be revealed by fire, not every believer ... The language used to describe the judgment of fire in 1Cr 3:15 is the same language used in Rev 20:12-13, every man judged for their works.
Most theologians have interpreted the scriptures as if there were a separate judgment for Christian and unbelievers, but the scriptures do not actually support this traditional teaching when inspected closely ... Christians are judged the same as unbelievers though perhaps at different times. And Good servants will not be hurt of the fiery judgments, while wicked servants and unbelievers will suffer loss, though they themselves will be saved by fire. That is to say the fire is what will purify them of the carnal nature so that they can receive Christ, even as true believers are purified by fire now in this life and given faith that they may believe now ...
1Pe 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Your friend and brother in Christ, Ironmaw1776 ...
It's hard to know the depth of this issue. Partaking of the tree is acknowledging the difference between right and wrong - good and evil - when the Tree of Life is not acknowledging it - simply seeing that all is His domain, and He uses it for His glory.
This is different from our conduct, for if we are indeed His children we will follow in His nature and not live as the carnal live. Indeed, we will fall; but we have an advocate with Him to remove the sin, and the root cause of it: our nature through the fire of His purging.
But the issue is huge - what are we as Christians to see when we look at creation? Good and evil? No - Jesus said the pure in heart will see God - this is the Tree we should be eating from.
The scripture Revelations 12; 7-11 ``The devil is rejected from Heaven , and now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God and power of his Christ.... and they overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death``.... There is NO mercy for the evil spirits of the earth from Heaven..... Jesus has come and he can set the captives free from these manipulators..... The Lord God gives all his Children everything they need to overcome and more than that. The Lord Created man on the sixth day in Genesis 1. and on the seventh day he rested, ... When we get saved everything is done for us all we have to do is ask, seek, knock, and obey, and rest for it is the seventh days for his Children....... as the result the devil is still left on the earth as a challenge for his children who have everything. ... so hear the Word of God and be clean of the world spirits, Jesus has got a plan for every one.
Many Christians will say 1Cr 3:15 is speaking only of Christians with no good works, or that these are Christians who have not made(converted) other Christians ... But according to the parables of the wicked servants, the christian with no good works is a wicked servant who will be allotted his portion(fate) with the unbelievers(Luk 12:46). So if the wicked Christians(servants) are saved by fire that is also the fate of unbelievers. However 1Cr 3:15 is not just talking about Christians anyway, as Paul wrote every mans works will be revealed by fire, not every believer ... The language used to describe the judgment of fire in 1Cr 3:15 is the same language used in Rev 20:12-13, every man judged for their works.
Most theologians have interpreted the scriptures as if there were a separate judgment for Christian and unbelievers, but the scriptures do not actually support this traditional teaching when inspected closely ... Christians are judged the same as unbelievers though perhaps at different times. And Good servants will not be hurt of the fiery judgments, while wicked servants and unbelievers will suffer loss, though they themselves will be saved by fire. That is to say the fire is what will purify them of the carnal nature so that they can receive Christ, even as true believers are purified by fire now in this life and given faith that they may believe now ...
1Pe 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Your friend and brother in Christ, Ironmaw1776 ...
Good Post. I see the same when you look at the weeds and the wheat. The chaff of the wheat is burned and the weeds are burned. Both are burned by fire..
I am sorry but this "purified by the fire" talk sounds cultish. I have heard over 50 different pastors, 4 different denominations and no one talks about being purified by fire. The only time I hear about things being burned up is when we receive our rewards. Sounds like you are making a doctrine out of this.
Quote:
Most theologians have interpreted the scriptures as if there were a separate judgment for Christian and unbelievers, but the scriptures do not actually support this traditional teaching when inspected closely
No offense but you are a universalist so you will not support traditional Christianity but in your "close examination" you are being critical of an inaccurate argument as traditional Christianity doesn't believe in one judgment. It is very clear that the great white throne judgment is the final judgment, Christians disagree on how it relates to the other judgments mentioned in the Bible, specifically, who will be judged at the great white throne judgment.
These were not dumb, ignorant men. Give them some respect for knowing what they are doing at least. Any time I hear people criticize theologians send up red flags
I am sorry but this "purified by the fire" talk sounds cultish. I have heard over 50 different pastors, 4 different denominations and no one talks about being purified by fire. The only time I hear about things being burned up is when we receive our rewards. Sounds like you are making a doctrine out of this.No offense but you are a universalist so you will not support traditional Christianity but in your "close examination" you are being critical of an inaccurate argument as traditional Christianity doesn't believe in one judgment. It is very clear that the great white throne judgment is the final judgment, Christians disagree on how it relates to the other judgments mentioned in the Bible, specifically, who will be judged at the great white throne judgment.
These were not dumb, ignorant men. Give them some respect for knowing what they are doing at least. Any time I hear people criticize theologians send up red flags
Fundie, to begin with, by definition(the broad definition not the narrow definition), Christianity is a cult. A cult is a form of belief that claims a man to be God, and which claims a special information or revelation which is the only truth, and that one must follow said man and said teaching and obey his commands in order to be saved.
Quote:
When people say that a religious group is a cult, they typically mean that it has one or more of the following characteristics:
Fundamentalist Christianity which teaches most of the worlds population will be tormented for ever is the most cultish form of religion along with Islam that exists on the earth.
Yet you come at me saying that Christian Universalism is cultish when we believe that God will save everyone and that in the end everyone will come into a knowledge of the truth.
I know that you are a relatively new Christian, and so i understand your thinking better than you may realize, but i believe that you have allot of experiences to go through before you will be able to appreciate much of the mystery of faith in Christ that the bible has to teach. You follow the teachings of men(as i did for 30 years of my life) and have not yet learned to think critically for yourself and divide the scriptures without the helping hand of the traditions which have been set before you by the leaders of fundamentalist Christianity who themselves have been brainwashed all their lives by the same traditions they seek to program all newcomers to the faith with. I dont expect you to understand the many various contradictions and loopholes which the traditions you follow are replete with. Just because your pastor-teachers do not tell you about these things, it doesn't mean that they are not true. The church has been overrun with false doctrine for more than 1500 years. You dont question the reformation which happened so many hundreds of years ago when the protestants began questioning and reforming the Christian ideology, removing themselves from many of the orthodox teachings of the Roman Catholic church and you believe they were right in doing so because that is what you have been taught by the men who you believe to be authorities of the faith. I tell you now, and i realize you may not even be able to receive this at this point in time, that all that is occurring with this new reformation is the completion of what was started but left unfinished during the first reformation. One day everyone will look back and see what is happening now in the same light that the earlier reformation is seen in today. We are returning to the original gospel and teachings of the church that was the most widely held doctrine of the early church during the first 5 centuries. This is not new, this is ancient doctrine and it can be found in the writings of many of the early church fathers if you took the time to study them along with all the men whose teachings you subscribe to
today.
I am confident and persuaded that one day you and everyone else will understand.
Mr 9:49 - For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Then i guess Jesus started the cult.
What does salt do?....it preserves, protects from decay
Mal 3:2-4
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:2-4
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Purify the sons of Levi.....prophetic word of the Priestly line of Christ.
What does this verse have anything to do with the rebel of the faith?
Purify the sons of Levi.....prophetic word of the Priestly line of Christ.
What does this verse have anything to do with the rebel of the faith?
Sciotamicks ... How do you imagine that i would see this as having something to do with the Fundamentalists post?
I will answer, but i want to see if you can see it for yourself without me saying anything. Actually i have already explained this before in other threads in detail, but you may not remember or maybe you never saw those explanations. So, how do you think this verse applies in my mind?
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