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Here is the challenge to YOU. Want to prove me wrong? - then prove my understanding of AIONIOS is incorrect. Find me a piece of scripture that shows it must be wrong.
My belief in Aionios is that it is an adjective that describes something that endures the age. Therefore, it doesn't describe limited duration or an endlessone. It simply tells us that something is going to CONTINUE to last BEYOND the age boundary.
@ trettep as I realized you're also an universalist? I don't think it's wise to argue about aionios more than necessary, even adherents of everlasting torment must admit that it does not by necessity denote endlessness and is in several instances used in a temporal sense in the New Testament, this is enough to defend universalism; everlasting torment can never be proven to be a biblical truth due to this fact, everlasting punishment could only be proven with certainty if aionios ever meant everlasting, which is not the case, and even if, annihilation were still a possibility and everlasting torment far from being confirmed.
I think aionios in biblical use means pertaining to (not necessarily lasting through) one, several or all aions; I think the aions altogether close and that therefore aionios is to be understood as something finite.
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It simply tells us that something is going to CONTINUE to last BEYOND the age boundary.
I have no objection against this view, but you seem to understand it as a finite period either, so I do not grasp what you want to say?
Many universalist get it wrong when it comes to Aionios. They try to tell you that it means a limited duration. Take this verse for example:
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
The word "eternal" there is from the Greek Aionios which many of them claim means a "limited duration". But does anyone really believe that these were called into God's limited duration glory?
How about this one:
Does anyone believe that the things not seens are limited in duration?
1Pe 5:10,11 Now the God of all grace, Who calls you into His eonian glory in Christ, while briefly suffering, He will be adjusting, establishing, firming, founding you. To Him be glory and might for the eons of the eons. Amen!
No, we are not called into God's limited duration glory. Aionios does not mean "limited duration." It is an adjective and just has the duty of telling us of that which is pertaining to either the eon or eons as the case may be.
God's eonian glory in Christ is that increddible glory which is pertaining to the two remaining eons to come.
And in verse 11 Christ is going to get glory and might for the two final greatest eons of all the eons which went before.
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2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 CLV (16) Wherefore we are not despondent, but even if our outward man is decaying, nevertheless that within us is being renewed day by day." (17) For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory, (18) at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian."
The Greek word behind "temporary" is "season." What is being observed, i.e., our outward man decaying (vs.16) but what is not being observed yet is "the transcendently transcendent eonian glory" (vs.17) which is eonian or pertaining to the oncoming ultra-glorious eons. They are much longer than a season or temporary. That's the point.
Here is a chart I put together for our web site Saviour of All Fellowship and can be viewed and explained here A Chart of the Judgments
Many universalist get it wrong when it comes to Aionios. They try to tell you that it means a limited duration. Take this verse for example:
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
The word "eternal" there is from the Greek Aionios which many of them claim means a "limited duration". But does anyone really believe that these were called into God's limited duration glory?
How about this one:
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
This was one of the examples I used in another thread to show that aiwnios can mean eternal. The word can indicate both limited duration and eternality. The context has to determine which meaning was intended by the author. In 2 Cor. 4:18, which you quoted, the context demands that it be interpreted "eternal," otherwise the contrast with temporal things makes no sense.
One thing is for sure: Aiwnios does not have to have the same meaning as the noun, aiwn, from which it is derived. Some universalists use that argument, appealing to that alleged rule of grammar, but it's an etymological fallacy. Adjectives can, and often do, have meanings vastly different from the nouns they came from. Some examples would be (nouns first, then adjectives):
This was one of the examples I used in another thread to show that aiwnios can mean eternal. The word can indicate both limited duration and eternality. The context has to determine which meaning was intended by the author. In 2 Cor. 4:18, which you quoted, the context demands that it be interpreted "eternal," otherwise the contrast with temporal things makes no sense.
One thing is for sure: Aiwnios does not have to have the same meaning as the noun, aiwn, from which it is derived. Some universalists use that argument, appealing to that alleged rule of grammar, but it's an etymological fallacy. Adjectives can, and often do, have meanings vastly different from the nouns they came from. Some examples would be (nouns first, then adjectives):
Jremy, why do you continue to post things not true?
I already proved to you that "monstrous" is not the adjective of "monster" and "homely" not the adjective of "home" and "lovely" not the adjective of "love" and "handy not the adjective of "hand." All one needs to do is look in any good dictionary and see what the noun is for each of those adjectives on the right.
Monstrousnessness n. Monstrous adj.
homeliness n. homely adj.
loveliness n. lovely adj.
handiness n. handy adj.
And I proved aionios does not mean eternal by the verses trettep posted
Gods Glory existed before the ages. After all Hebrews shows that all AGES were created therefore, if all ages are created then at some point there was no age.
Your making excuses. I never said that aionios means forever.
Yes, but when the ages were created, it then became eonian, it then pertained to the eons.
The verse is obviously not contrasting the two you wish is to, it's not an excuse.
Jremy, why do you continue to post things not true?
I already proved to you that "monstrous" is not the adjective of "monster"
This is hardly worthy of a refutation. First of all, one of the definitions in Merriam-Webster's states: "having the qualities or apperance of a monster." Therefore, it comes from the noun "monster." Secondly, it's a standard rule: adding suffixes like -ous or -ly to the end of a noun make it an adjective, as in "friendly." Are you going to tell me that "friendly" does not come from "friend" now? Consider also the noun, "ridicule": Adding -ous turns it into the adjective, "ridiculous." According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, both "ridicule" and "ridiculous" come from "L ridiculum." This, in fact, is another example that proves my point: The noun, ridicule, means mockery, but the adjective, "ridiculous," can mean something quite different: absurd, preposterous.
You'll see that they both have the same etymological background.
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and "homely" not the adjective of "home"
The first definition in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary states: "suggestive or characteristic of a home." So it came from the noun "home." It just so happens that it has other meanings besides that one.
Go here: Online Etymology Dictionary and then go to their definition of love, and you'll see that "lovely" is in the Middle English, "luflic," and "love" comes from the Middle English word, "lufu."
Also, Merriam-Webster's lists one of the definitions of this word as, "clever in using the hands esp. in a variety of useful ways." Believe it: It comes from the noun, "hand."
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All on need to is look in any good dictionary and see what the noun is for each of those adjectives on the right.
I did. I had also done so before posting those words. It's odd that you suggest using a dictionary and yet, if you had done so, you would have seen the meanings I listed above, which show clearly that those adjectives come from the corresponding nouns.
Jremy, if you are going to stick to what you have written on the noun/adjective relationship then you have to concur that aionios is derived from aion and hence just as "friendly" pertains to "friend" then aionios pertains to aion. And since no aion is endless, it is impossible for aionios to be endless.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says, "Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration."
Saint Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3, says that, "Satan’s kingdom is aeonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."
Dr. Hanson makes some effort to dismiss the use of the word aionios as meaing eternal by Plato:
Referring to certain souls in Hades, he describes them as in aiónion intoxication. But that he does not use the word in the sense of endless is evident from the Phædon, where he says, "It is a very ancient opinion that souls quitting this world, repair to the infernal regions, and return after that, to live in this world." After the aiónion intoxication is over, they return to earth, which demonstrates that the world was not used by him as meaning endless. Again,(31) he speaks of that which is indestructible, (anolethron) and not aiónion. He places the two words in contrast, whereas, had he intended to use aiónion as meaning endless, he would have said indestructible and aiónion.
Hanson also makes this point on Plato's use of aionios:
Once more,(32) Plato quotes four instances of aión, and three of aiónios, and one ofdiaiónios in a single passage, in contrast with aidios (eternal.) The gods he calls eternal, (aidios) but the soul and the corporeal nature, he says, are aiónios, belonging to time, and "all these," he says, "are part of time." And he calls Time [Kronos] an aiónios image of Aiónos. Exactly what so obscure an author may mean here is not apparent, but one thing is perfectly clear, he cannot mean eternity and eternal by aiónios and aiónion, for nothing is wider from the fact than that fluctuating, changing Time, beginning and ending, and full of mutations, is an image of Eternity. It is in every possible particular its exact opposite.
Is catapult derived from a cat? LOL!
Is a cowling derived from a cow?
Monstrous 1. Deviating greatly from the
norm in appearance or structure; abnormal 2. Exception-
ally large; enormous. 3. Hideous; frightful; shocking: "a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed" (Winston Churhill).
[ME monstrows < OFr. monstreaux < Lat. monstruosus < monstrum, monster.] -mon'strous-ly adv. -mon'strous-ness n.
Second College Edition The American Heritage Dictionary
Some time ago I asked you to find in the bible where the adjective does not pertain to the noun from which it is derived. I notice you never found one yet.
This was one of the examples I used in another thread to show that aiwnios can mean eternal. The word can indicate both limited duration and eternality. The context has to determine which meaning was intended by the author. In 2 Cor. 4:18, which you quoted, the context demands that it be interpreted "eternal," otherwise the contrast with temporal things makes no sense.
I still challenge this claim, proskairos the word used in 2 Cor. 4:18 is not the proper antithesis to eternity in a Platonic sense, Plato probably coined the idea of eternity in aiôn, yet there is no hint that the biblical writers followed him, I think I have provided enough evidence for this from the Septuagint with which the New Testament writers were familiar.
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The idea of an unchangeable and timeless condition was first put inside the term aiôn by Plato as a philosophically caused step for the distinction with chronos (i.e. time), as the moving image of the Platonic archetypes (theory of forms or ideas), as seen e.g. in Plato's "Timaios". Aiôn in Plato is an artificial term of a pure realm of ideas without relation to the common language of that age.
I translated that from a very interesting German link, maybe you are able to read it @ Jremy:
I would translate the entire article, however the physical terminology causes me problems.
The proper antithesis to "eternal" in a Platonic sense would be chronikos, temporal in the sense of pertaining to time (chronos). The English language seems to lack a proper adjective to express this thought, in Greek it's chronos and chronikos, in Latin tempus and temporalis, in German Zeit and zeitlich, so in English it should be time and timely, I hope you get what I want to express.
In Philemon 15 we find an hour (ôra) contrasted with aiônios, an hour is as little the proper antithesis to "eternity" than a mere season, yet even this contrast (hour - aeonian) is, ridiculously in my opinion, used to claim aiônios denotes infinity, however the proper antithesis to eternity is time, yet Paul speaks of aiônios times which proofs that he did not use these terms in a Platonic sense.
Plato never once used aion or aionion to refer to eternity.
Here is part of a talk I did on Plato and aionios:
Plato was saying that in his Xronos (Time) section of Timeaus that time, the planets etc. are a moving image of the eons and what is eonian.
In Plato's Timaeus he states:
Plato is saying it is wrong to attribute that which was and that which will be to the imperceptible essense (most likely he meant by "imperceptible essense" the essense of God. Because, according to Plato, God is neither was nor will be but "is." Only "is" is properly attributed to God. "Was" and "will be" according to Plato have reference only to time. Since God is immovable He just "is." Was and will be are motions and are spoken of as time. Since, according to Plato, God "is" He is not becoming older or younger by time. He is not subject to the moving things such as the aeons. The aeons are not "is" but are "was" and "will be" for they are not eternal but are constantly moving.
Plato stated:
"These are the forms of time, which imitates the eon (aiwna/eon) and revolves according to a law of number."
Plain as day. Time imitates the aiwna/eon. The eons are not contrasted with time but imitate time.
"Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of aiwnos/eon, and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image aiwnion/eonian but moving according to number, while aiwnion/eonian itself rests in unity; and this image we call time (xronon)."
Time is the moving image of eonian/aiwnion. Are we all clear on this?
since eonian is that which pertains to the eons, that which is eonian rests in the unity of the eons.
Since the Bible says all the eons end, it is impossible for eon to mean eternity. You would think that this point alone would be good enough for those who really want to honor God and take Him at His word, but there are those who would rather believe men than God.
Plato said Eonian is a moving image called TIME
Time is not eternity. How can eternity be a moving image of time? Since eternity is timelessness.
Last edited by Eusebius; 02-11-2010 at 12:26 PM..
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