Who laughs last..... (hell, testimony, woman, church)
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I agree the mark will be a literal one.How else could you not buy sell or trade without it??
Imagine walking up to the checkout and having a wand scan your forehead or hand,the way it does when the cashier comes around with it to scan the heavy items in your cart.Why not? It certainly seems very governmental to me..to keep track of everyone and control what they are doing...to make sure they are being taxed...etc.New way they can make sure those working for themselves are not cheating the gov't...every transaction is recorded.Period.
I agree the mark will be a literal one.How else could you not buy sell or trade without it??
Imagine walking up to the checkout and having a wand scan your forehead or hand,the way it does when the cashier comes around with it to scan the heavy items in your cart.Why not? It certainly seems very governmental to me..to keep track of everyone and control what they are doing...to make sure they are being taxed...etc.New way they can make sure those working for themselves are not cheating the gov't...every transaction is recorded.Period.
However, this was written before technology and yet there was a way you could not buy or sell then... right? After all it seems as though they fully expected for Christ to return SOON in their time... So when the 7 churches read that do you think they were thinking of an actual physical mark or allegiance?
The problem with the futurist view is that Revelation was written AND DELIVERED AND READ BY the seven churches in the 1st century.
So you must ask yourself how THEY viewed the letter as it was written for and to them, or do you think that John wrote Revelation so that it could be canonized? Do not seal the prophecy means that it went out to those churches then... and they must have known as John did, what the mark was and it was not some high tech super chip for shopping as they had no knowledge of that and would not understand something like that.
However.. you will see in the 1st century that a lot of the buying and selling depended on the Jews and the Romans,(not to mention a famine at that time..) both of which were at odds and required allegiance. That must have made it very difficult to buy and sell things... don't you think?
How you speak about this IS harsh. If you are trying to win people over so they don't die.. this is not the way.
I shall certainly die.. you will die. The only two things we can count on in the natural world are death and taxes.
You live in America? If so, do you have the right to buy and sell things here? why? Because you are marked as a citizen? Your allegiance should be with America right? So you can buy and sell things here.
Now do you have a tattoo that shows you are an American citizen?
And I suppose you don't have a mark that shows you are a child of God, right?
So I would say that you are mistaken about the necessity of having a tangible mark to buy and sell. Most people understand that the mark is about allegiance and not really about buying and selling.
However, my main point is not to try to disuade you from your futurist mentality but to point out that your method is very harsh and not at all what I would expect from someone who sees people who will be lost but more what I would expect from someone laughing as others are tortured.
It's sad. I would hope that is not an example of Christ-like behavior.
This is harsh and not said in love?
Scenario.... 11 year old Billy is playing in the street again... against the wishes of his dear mother and father who have repeatedly warned him of the dangers, seen and unseen. Un-beknownst to Billy is a vehicle approaching at a really fast speed. Billy is totally oblivious of the impending doom, however, you who see the event taking place right before you're very eyes know that you need to take action and fast! Time is of the essence! It could very well mean the difference between life or death of that individual.
What course of action would you choose?
A. Would you calmly walk up to Billy and say gently to him: "Oh dear Billy, now you know your mom and dad have repeatedly ask you to not play in the road, am I correct dear child? Now, take a look to your left, do you see that car that is quickly approaching at breakneck speed? Would you kindly proceed to the other side of the street my dear? Thank you."
Or would you......
B. As swiftly as your feet can take you, run into that road and quickly grab Billy by whatsoever you can get a hold of and snatch him from what would have surely been his death?
There is a time for everything under the sun. You win some by.....And of some have compassion, making a difference;
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23)
I depend on Lord to keep me in perfect balance. I have a job to do, and must be about my Father's business. If it's not for you, it's not for you, however; I'm confident the right recipient will be blessed. Love is wanting that none should perish my friend and saving them by any means necessary.
Scenario.... 11 year old Billy is playing in the street again... against the wishes of his dear mother and father who have repeatedly warned him of the dangers, seen and unseen. Un-beknownst to Billy is a vehicle approaching at a really fast speed. Billy is totally oblivious of the impending doom, however, you who see the event taking place right before you're very eyes know that you need to take action and fast! Time is of the essence! It could very well mean the difference between life or death of that individual.
What course of action would you choose?
A. Would you calmly walk up to Billy and say gently to him: "Oh dear Billy, now you know your mom and dad have repeatedly ask you to not play in the road, am I correct dear child? Now, take a look to your left, do you see that car that is quickly approaching at breakneck speed? Would you kindly proceed to the other side of the street my dear? Thank you."
Or would you......
B. As swiftly as your feet can take you, run into that road and quickly grab Billy by whatsoever you can get a hold of and snatch him from what would have surely been his death?
There is a time for everything under the sun. You win some by.....And of some have compassion, making a difference;
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23)
I depend on Lord to keep me in perfect balance. I have a job to do, and must be about my Father's business. If it's not for you, it's not for you, however; I'm confident the right recipient will be blessed. Love is wanting that none should perish my friend and saving them by any means necessary.
Yes.....WITH LOVE, Betsey
Now in your story there is a definite and obvious threat to Billy's safety.. not everyone sees the threat you see. There is no return of Christ seen on the horizon.
I totally disagree with your theology so I guess it's a moot point. but there is no vehicle about to kill people on this forum so I think you turn people off to the saving grace rather than doing any good as you claim your motive is..
But alas... that is just my opinion and I am sure that God will let you know (if you are open to it) if what you are doing is according to his will..
Right? Perhaps my typing right now is just that....
I do not believe the devil ever wanted to ever be like God , he just wanted to be worshipped in the same way and nothing more . Satan is evil and has no desire to be Godlike , no more than our alienated mind has no desire to be .
God is God by nature , and the devil is the devil by nature .
I agree the mark will be a literal one.How else could you not buy sell or trade without it??
Imagine walking up to the checkout and having a wand scan your forehead or hand,the way it does when the cashier comes around with it to scan the heavy items in your cart.Why not? It certainly seems very governmental to me..to keep track of everyone and control what they are doing...to make sure they are being taxed...etc.New way they can make sure those working for themselves are not cheating the gov't...every transaction is recorded.Period.
The mark need not be literal if you realize the "buying and selling" is a symbol...
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding.
The mark of the beast is on the forehead -symbolizing thoughts and doctrines of Babylon; and on the right hand -symbolizing works of Babylon.
Buying and selling is a symbol for trading the "truth" with the religion of Babylon. If you do not have the mark (partake of its doctrines and works), then you are not allowed to "buy and sell" with it, you are cast of Babylon.
What is Mystery Babylon? All the false religions of the world.
That is what the mark of the beast and "buying and selling" is talking about.
Now in your story there is a definite and obvious threat to Billy's safety.. not everyone sees the threat you see. There is no return of Christ seen on the horizon.
I totally disagree with your theology so I guess it's a moot point. but there is no vehicle about to kill people on this forum so I think you turn people off to the saving grace rather than doing any good as you claim your motive is..
But alas... that is just my opinion and I am sure that God will let you know (if you are open to it) if what you are doing is according to his will..
Right? Perhaps my typing right now is just that....
And you have a right to your......opinions katjonjj. Thank you for calling and sharing.
The mark need not be literal if you realize the "buying and selling" is a symbol...
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding.
The mark of the beast is on the forehead -symbolizing thoughts and doctrines of Babylon; and on the right hand -symbolizing works of Babylon.
Buying and selling is a symbol for trading the "truth" with the religion of Babylon. If you do not have the mark (partake of its doctrines and works), then you are not allowed to "buy and sell" with it, you are cast of Babylon.
What is Mystery Babylon? All the false religions of the world.
That is what the mark of the beast and "buying and selling" is talking about.
You find one verse that has the word "sell" in it and use it to define the "mark of the beast"? I'm not sure what that particular Proverb has to do with:
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Revelation 13: 14-18)
You know, TODAY we mark cattle's and tag animals that are our property. The "mark" only appears on people who worship the beast! Satan wants worship! Satan WANTS to be like the Most High, to be the Most High God!
See, the idea of the "mark" being a thought makes no sense, seeing that we already HAVE and TESTED and have CURRENTLY in use a prototype that goes under the skin, in none other place but the RIGHT hand for the purpose of making purchase and identifying YOU! It's here, being done! Besides, who sits on the right hand of the Father? Remember Satan wanting to be like God, hence; your "right hand"?
Coincidence? Really people? Oh, I can just see it now....."Dear God did you really meant what you wrote?" When the LITERAL MARK comes out, will people be standing in line while THINKING: "It's a good thing that we KNOW what the real mark of the beast is"! It's not this, it's a thought....!
This was prophesied over 2000 years ago people! Come on! The literal interpretation is a reality, staring us in the face and people are saying, hmmmm....no not that, not in my lifetime. Why not OUR lifetime? How much more time do you need? To believe? Really?
Last edited by Betsey Lane; 02-17-2010 at 07:20 PM..
Betsey, all I'm saying is this: the "buying and selling", which is in the book of Revelations, which in itself is an entire book of symbols - perhaps the "buying and selling" itself could be a symbol? Could that be possible?
I just gave proverbs 23:23 as an example where buying and selling is not a literal buying and selling of goods.
The idea of a literal mark you promote doesn't make sense in many ways. Yes I know all about RFID tags and animal tagging and how some people want to tag mankind (probably for nefarious NWO purposes, population control, etc). But there is a deeper meaning here in the scripture that you are missing. If you are willing to explore this, read on:
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If you want to know what the real truth is IMHO, it is that we ALL ALREADY have had the mark of the beast, and we have all ALREADY been deceived, and we have all ALREADY worshiped the beast, though perhaps some do no longer. What is the beast? Mankind - self - ego - man's all-powerful "free will". Who is the beast? IT'S US. Read this:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Have you been deceived? No? Are you sure? Rev 12:9 says everyone has, including you and me.
Who is referred to as a beast in scriptures?:
Ec 3:18 I said in my heart: It is on account of the sons of humanity That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them And to show them that they themselves are beasts.
What about when the beast sits in the temple of God? What is the temple of God?:
2 Cor 16 .. For we are the temple of the living God...
2 Thes 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
We sit in the "temple of God" (our own body) when we believe that we are in control and God is not. We exalt ourselves as if we were a god and worship ourself instead of God. This is what "free will" says: Man can thwart God's plans. Man's desire is achieved, God's is not. "free will" belief makes man the "god".
There is no one grand "the antichrist" (singular). Scripture always refers to it as "antichrist" or spirit of antichrist.
666 is the number of the beast and is the number of man (ie. mankind, not a single man). We are the beast. We are the man of lawlessness. We are the spirit of antichrist. That is, until Christ works in us and we overcome our sinful nature.
Babylon is the harlot and represents the world's false church systems.
This won't make sense to you though if you think Revelations is a literal description of end times. Rev 1 tells us it is a book of symbols - the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST - which is, was, and will be. It is relevant in all generations, not just one final endtime generation.
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Love is wanting that none should perish my friend and saving them by any means necessary. 
