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Scripture is clear that God knows who will be saved and God chooses who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.
I agree that "we must choose" based upon God choosing us first.
It is not a matter of our choosing possibly going one way or another.
After all, how could it go against God's choice? Especially since:
"Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." (Rom 8:30)
There is no doubt in God's mind and will that whom He designates
beforehand that they will end up being glorified.
The Lord directs a man's steps . . . I take that to mean, a believer's steps, who is walking rightly with God . . . does God direct the atheist steps . . .or the mocker steps . . . ???
I know we are clay being molded . . . if we allow ourselves to be molded . . I'm studying this now . . . I don't think free will or God's will is black and white . . . .I believe we have free will, I believe also that God direct's believer's steps . . . . will look at these scriptures again later . . . . .peace, lifesigns64
How can clay refuse to be molded? The potter reaches out and takes it and molds it. True, we can object, we are a bit above the mud in the earth that way, but if your child cries cuz he doesn't want a bath, you don't tell him, ok, your choice, you put him in the tub and wash him anyway.
In the long run, it's as simple as that, it just seems a lot more complicated now.
The Lord directs a man's steps . . . I take that to mean, a believer's steps, who is walking rightly with God . . . does God direct the atheist steps . . .or the mocker steps . . . ???
All is directed by God, lifesigns64. He is the one working all things according to His plan right?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Is this only talking about King's who are believers? NO we have a biblical example in Pharaoh. God surely directed Pharaoh to do as God willed by hardening his heart. God wanted and intended Pharaoh to hold Moses' people captive - all for God's good purpose.
What about Hitler ... did God direct Hitler like a watercourse for God's good purposes? Could God have stopped Hitler's atrocities if He wanted to? He didn't stop Pharaoh from holding Israel captive... because God intended it!
I'm not saying these are easy truths to understand. But we must believe the scriptures, lest we be deceived.
Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Did Hitler & Pharaoh have authority? Were they governing? Did God establish that authority and power? The scriptures tell us there is no authority that exists except it has been established by God.
Quote:
I know we are clay being molded . . . if we allow ourselves to be molded . . I'm studying this now . . . I don't think free will or God's will is black and white . . . .I believe we have free will, I believe also that God direct's believer's steps . . . . will look at these scriptures again later . . . . .peace, lifesigns64
Listen to youself lifesigns! "I know we are clay being molded ... if we allow ourselves to be molded..." If we allow ourselves to be molded?!?? Think about it! Does real clay allow itself to be molded? Why call us clay if we can do anything of ourself?
Side note, did you know even our disobedience is ordained and purposed by God?
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Did we "allow" God to bind us into disobedience, OR did God just do it?
This is a most difficult truth to accept as human pride gets in the way and says ME ME ME. "ME I AM THE ONE WHO DOES IT, NOT GOD". But we will all be humbled enough to realize it is not ME ME ME sooner or later.
These things will make more sense if you can realize God will restore and reconcile everything eventually.
How can clay refuse to be molded? The potter reaches out and takes it and molds it. True, we can object, we are a bit above the mud in the earth that way, but if your child cries cuz he doesn't want a bath, you don't tell him, ok, your choice, you put him in the tub and wash him anyway.
In the long run, it's as simple as that, it just seems a lot more complicated now.
Excellent Post!
We can complain all we want but He's still gonna slap us down on that wheel and make something of our clay that will glorify Him . . . one way or another!
Free will is a technique of power deployed by power to manage populations (I hear an echo here.....ummmmm), so it is a mental structure or ideal. The modern world required the individual to be more independent then in the ancient world. One had to attend the machines of capitalism (and later commie-ism) and function in the mechanisms of commerce (your modern world). Law became more complex and instead of simply being a power over life and death as with a king, law became a technique to establish norms to fit in with the new complex "democratized" world, this requires self directing individuals who stop at stop signs when no one is around, pay their own utility bills, self educate, get themselves to work on time, adapt to other schedules, etc, with the need for complete control from a top down structure-some one leading you around by your hand, so to speak. The complexity is raised in the modern systems very high with a complex social structure that need individuals who philosophically (or some other mode or combination) think they are a little self governing world all unto themselves-this helps make modernity possible and stream line the ruling process and make buying and selling possible at this large stage. Theology is always colliding with the other ologies of the social system and is open to some of these other thoughts, depending on the strain of theology, some more some less; theology, like all ologies have mechanisms in place to keep itself distinct even when incorporating outside information. Free will is, probably, a philosophical idea (but maybe political or legal, who knows the origin; at least as legal it has attributive advantages). The concept, as meaning, of course, varies historically, culturally, and between thought structures, so it is not a static representation of human essence but a suggestion that the has use.
Clay is inanimate. It is figurative only, legoman. Children are independent offspring destined to become adults . . . like their parent . . . NOT inanimate clay molded into vases or pots. Are there boundaries and limitations on their freedom to be independent . . . absolutely. There are rules and "laws" they must follow (but are free to violate and accept the consequences). ANYother view is pointless and makes a mockery of our capabilities to distinguish good from evil. Why bother to have such . . . if it is all determined for us? Is the goal determined and set for ALL of us . . . absolutely. Will God influence, guide, assist, coax, cajole and otherwise work His will to see to it that we get there . . . absolutely . . . BUT on HIS terms and timetable in whatever mode He determines will be most effective for each of us as independent and free individuals by HIS WILL. DOMINION is DOMINION, period.
Fundy, what do you make of all the scripture in post #2 that says God directs our steps, determines our days, and is working all things according to His will?
Surely we cannot have "free will" if those scriptures are true.
The silence is killing me .
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Excellent Post! 
