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I see what you are saying. I just don't see that it is water baptism. It doesn't say water so I assume it is the same kind of baptism that Jesus did not John. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.. right?
So how do you know that when baptism is said it means water baptism and not spirit baptism?
I don't know... To me, those verses seem to be saying that there is one baptism that is for the remission of sins, which was the baptism John performed. Then there was another baptism, one of fire (or of the Holy Ghost) that was received by the laying on of hands.
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Actually another question I had for you was whether you think there is some power in the water. If there is no power in the water then what is the purpose?
To me, that's kind of like asking, "Is there power in the blood of Christ?" Water, blood. In and of themselves they have no power. They are used to describe certain acts. Water is used to describe baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. I believe it is the way through which we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ. It's not as if the water, in and of itself, has the power to do anything for us. It's the ordinance of baptism by water that has the power to grant us remission from our sins -- provided we repent of those sins and recognize the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Likewise, it is not His "blood," per se, which saves us, but the fact that He gave His life for us. When we say that we're saved by His blood, we're really saying that we're saved by the fact that His blood was shed on our behalf. So, the Atonement was His and His alone. Baptism is the means by which we become a new creature in Him. When we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we are given the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, provided we continue to remain faithful to our baptismal covenants. At least that's how I see it.
Also, is it God that requires this water baptism or is it man?[/quote]
I don't know... To me, those verses seem to be saying that there is one baptism that is for the remission of sins, which was the baptism John performed. Then there was another baptism, one of fire (or of the Holy Ghost) that was received by the laying on of hands.
I didn't get that.. in all the scriptures I read the baptism by John was for repentance not remission of sins. Do you believe that John forgave sins? When you look at the stories you see that repentance comes first then forgiveness of sins.. John came first and one greater than he came second.. To me this makes sense that John's baptizing was for repentance and Jesus' more for forgiveness of sins... does that make sense? Because if you base your thought process on the premise that John forgave sins by water baptism I don't think that is true to scripture. If you could show me where you see this it might help me understand.
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To me, that's kind of like asking, "Is there power in the blood of Christ?" Water, blood. In and of themselves they have no power. They are used to describe certain acts. Water is used to describe baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. I believe it is the way through which we enter into a covenant relationship with Christ. It's not as if the water, in and of itself, has the power to do anything for us. It's the ordinance of baptism by water that has the power to grant us remission from our sins -- provided we repent of those sins and recognize the atoning sacrifice of Christ.
That is kinda my point. The power is not in the water, but in the mind of the person. Now noone sprinkles real blood anymore but even when they did they knew it was symbolic and that it really didn't wash anything but God did by honoring their symbolism.. so is that what you mean? That God only honors their salvation because they symbolically washed? So then it is really for the mind of the person and not that God requires it, right?
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Likewise, it is not His "blood," per se, which saves us, but the fact that He gave His life for us. When we say that we're saved by His blood, we're really saying that we're saved by the fact that His blood was shed on our behalf. So, the Atonement was His and His alone. Baptism is the means by which we become a new creature in Him. When we receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we are given the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, provided we continue to remain faithful to our baptismal covenants. At least that's how I see it.
You stated that it is the person's way of entering into the covenant and I think this is where we may differ. I believe that all those under the Old Covenant were born into it. Right? Or did they agree to it somehow? By all rights, then, it should be the same with the New Covenant. So in my mind everyone not born under the old covenant is born under the new covenant. Therefore, in my mind, those things listed about the new covenant in Jer. 31 are in effect whether or not a person even realizes it at God's directive. The purpose of having a mediator is to speak on our behalf. Jesus agreed to the covenant on our behalf so there is nothing for us to do. That is why I disagree about your stance on the 99% saved rather than 100.
Anyway I thought I should explain just so you have a better understanding of where I am coming from. To me this is all done and there is no undoing it.. Just as there is nothing more to do FOR it, including baptism.
But I am fine with discussing it according to your beliefs rather than mine because I really am interested to see if the baptism talked about was water or spirit and how that affected their salvation during that period of time which I refer to as the transition from old to new.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
says nothing about whoever is not baptized will be condemned.
JESUS makes a very simple statement there in Mark. We simply accept it with faith. "Anyone believeing and is baptized will be saved..."
He did not mention baptism in the rest of that statement. But you see, if someone does not believe, they are not allowed to be baptized. Even if they were baptized and did not believe, it would be useless. They would still be just as lost.
We are saved through faith in JESUS CHRIST. As the scripture states, "There is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved."
Without His death upon the cross, there would be no salvation for anyone.
I do not preach salvation through water baptism. However, it is clear to me in scripture, water baptism has an inseprable function for the Church. I believe it is being born of the water, as stated by JESUS and recorded in John chapter 3. It is only for those who already believe in JESUS CHRIST. The atonement of the blood of JESUS is granted through faith, apart from water baptism. That is very evident in Acts when Peter witnessed gentiles who recieved the HOLY SPIRIT, but who had not yet been baptized in the water in JESUS name. Straightway though, Peter ordered that they be baptized.
I want to encourage every believer in our LORD JESUS to recieve and obey all the commandments of JESUS. Let's get away from arguments over doctrinal points and simply obey GOD with faith. Isn't that what it's all about?
I do not think it comes down to understanding but knowing . There is a witness within me that says to me i am is, i do not worry about being imperfect in the flesh(which causes many to doubt their salvation) because He will complete that which He started in me. As the scriptures say He is the rock of my Savation (Psalm 62.6)
There is no step 1,2 and 3 to salvation . It's funny how hard line fundy's will reject the prosperity message of "3 steps to unlocking the wealth of God" or whatever the titles of the wares of the steps to prosperity message are , yet they peddle the gospel in exactly the same way , do this that and the other and hey presto your a christian.
Salvation comes to us at the appointed time , the scripture says "Now is the day of your salvation" , and when it comes you know that you know that you know.
To whoever may be struggling with whether you belong to Him or not , do not let how awful you see your old man as being , he's still as awful as the day you believed , look to Him (The Lord) and find in Him that He's your All in All.
Wow! So if people were never taught about "the one true God," they're just flat out of luck because "they have no excuse." They're damned without even having had a chance to believe. And that doesn't strike you as being the slightest bit unjust?
It's better to never have heard of Christ, than to have heard and rejected him. God is a fair judge to those who never heard of him. The people who are worst off are those who have heard and understood, but choose to deliberatly misinform those around them. Also, if you know a lot, then more will be required of you. It sounds fair to me.
Luke 12:47-48 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more'
Romans 2:14-16 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus
It's better to never have heard of Christ, than to have heard and rejected him. God is a fair judge to those who never heard of him. The people who are worst off are those who have heard and understood, but choose to deliberatly misinform those around them. Also, if you know a lot, then more will be required of you. It sounds fair to me.
Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that even if a person had never heard of Christ, God would say that person had no excuse for not believing and would be condemned. So did I misunderstand?
Romans 1:20 is stating that no one has any excuse for denying the existence of God since He has made Himself known through His creation.
Long before the Jewish race came into existence (Abraham became the first Jew at the age of 99), the Gospel was made known by God to man. The Jews were supposed to be the custodians of God's word and to evangelize the nations. They failed to do so and repeatedly came under divine discipline. Although the law was given only to Israel, the Gospel wasn't.
As I said in the earlier post, the Gospel message was given to Adam immediately after he fell. It was Jesus Christ who walked in the garden in the cool of the evening before Adam sinned. Gen. 3:8.
It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Abram and others as the angel of the Lord in His pre-incarnate appearances. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Moses as the burning bush. It was Jesus Christ who led the Hebrews through the wilderness and appeared to them as the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. It is Jesus Christ who is the God of Israel. 1 Cor. 10 shows this. And it was Jesus Christ who dwelled in the tabernacle in the holy of holies on the mercy seat as the shekinah glory.
In Old Testament times, whether Jew or Gentile, salvation has always been through faith in the Messiah as He was presented to them. In Numbers 21:6-9, Moses lifting up the bronze serpent on the standard was a picture of Christ on the Cross. The Hebrews who had been bitten by poisonous snakes and were dying had only to look at the serpent on the pole in order to be cured and live. This was a type or picture of Christ and to the fact that one need only believe in Christ in order to be eternally saved.
So again, it is not faith in God the Father that saves, but rather, it is faith in God the Son, Jesus Christ that saves.
Mike, thank you for your answer. You know, after reflecting on what you say here, I agree completely. I guess I just didn't phrase my answers correctly. Thanks for setting me straight.
Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that even if a person had never heard of Christ, God would say that person had no excuse for not believing and would be condemned. So did I misunderstand?
Can you quote my text which you misunderstood, because I don't know what you are referring to.
Luke 12:47-48 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more'
And of course, let's not forget it is up to the soverign God to decide who is meant to be saved. Not everyone is meant to be saved. He says "it depends". Only sceptics question God's soveirgnity, while believers take it as a fact of life.
Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-19-2010 at 08:23 AM..
So, how about those who lived deep in the Amazon in year 649? After all, they never heard of Christ or the Gospel.
They will be judged by "the law written in their hearts". Even the indians in the Amazon has a God given concience, and that is their law. Too bad for the sceptics living in US and Europe, because they will not have the excuse of never having heard of Christ. They heard is and chose to reject it.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2:14-16)
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-19-2010 at 10:00 AM..
So, how about those who lived deep in the Amazon in year 649? After all, they never heard of Christ or the Gospel.
They will be judged by "the law written in their hearts". Even they indians in the Amazon has a God given concience, and that is their law. Too bad for the sceptics living in US and Europe, because they will not have the excuse of never having heard of Christ. They heard is and chose to reject it.
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2:14-16)
This is interesting, but are you saying there is another way to God? These men could be saved without Jesus, but are saved simply on how "good" they are?
Or are you saying some men may be saved after death?
(Both of these "accusations" are often railed against UR)
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there is another way to God? These men could be saved without Jesus, but are saved simply on how "good" they are?
(Both of these "accusations" are often railed against UR)
