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Mike, thank you for your answer. You know, after reflecting on what you say here, I agree completely. I guess I just didn't phrase my answers correctly. Thanks for setting me straight.
This is interesting, but are you saying there is another way to God?
I am saying what the Bible says about those who never heard of the Gospel (like the Indians in the Amazon). It has nothing to do with universal salvation, because according to universal salvation even those who heard Gospel, and rejected it are saved.
So, how about those who lived deep in the Amazon in year 649? After all, they never heard of Christ or the Gospel.
They will be judged by "the law written in their hearts". Even they indians in the Amazon has a God given concience, and that is their law. Too bad for the sceptics living in US and Europe, because they will not have the excuse of never having heard of Christ. They heard is and chose to reject it.
Joel 2: 28-30 28. " It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions. 29. "Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30. "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
Isa. 40:5 5. Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Hab. 2:14 14. "For the earth will be filled
With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
As the waters cover the sea.
Zech. 12:10 10. "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
Rev. 1:7 7. BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Acts 2:17-21 17. 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18. EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy. 19. 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. 20. 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. 21. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Rom. 10:10-13 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13. for "(WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom. 1:17-32 17. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Unbelief and Its Consequences
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23. and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27. and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30. slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31. without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32. and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Since it is hard for good people to fathom God letting people burn in hell for eternity, they look for a reason that makes it ok, such as, the people should have known about Jesus by looking at nature, or they were so evil that God didn't even bother to send the Gospel to them, etc. So if you believe in hell, you probably believe that there are human beings like those in the Amazon whose flesh has been burning every second since around the year 649. Does that bother you? If not, I wonder why. Would you see someone on fire and not try to stop their suffering? Could you stand there and watch them burn and scream for seconds, much less days, years, and centuries, and not be moved with compassion to stop the pain?
Are we more merciful than God? Do we have more love than God? Do we have more compassion on someone who was born hundreds of years before us, than the God who knit them together in their mother's womb? Or is it just that we're not holy enough to be ok with it, because it's God's holiness that allows Him to burn people forever without letting them die?
If you're not ok with this, maybe you should ask God why he is doing it. Don't be afraid. We are supposed to seek God with our whole hearts. If your earthly father were torturing someone, even an animal, you might at the very least approach him with the question as to why he was doing that. Ask your heavenly Father why this is ok, and listen intently in your heart for the answer. Let God speak to you first, and then let the scriptures speak to you, and you might be surprised like I was, to find that God is more merciful than He has been given credit for.
A point I'd like to make regarding "Do You Understand Salvation?" is that Paul said he was shown mercy because he didn't believe, and we have been taught that we are only shown mercy because we believe!!
1 Timothy 1:
12.And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me
faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13.Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy,
because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14.And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in
Christ Jesus.
15.This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into
the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16.Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth
all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to (not for) life
everlasting.
Would you see someone on fire and not try to stop their suffering? Could you stand there and watch them burn and scream for seconds, much less days, years, and centuries, and not be moved with compassion to stop the pain?
All you can do is try to save them before they die. Trying to lead people to believe there is no such thing as hell won't help them once they arrive there, because it will be too late. Even worse, not only will they burn, but you will have to answer to God for leading them there.
All you can do is try to save them before they die. Trying to lead people to believe there is no such thing as hell won't help them once they arrive there, because it will be too late. Even worse, not only will they burn, but you will have to answer to God for leading them there.
"All you can do is try to save them before they die." God can do much more than try. He can actually save them, even though I can't.
If you truly believe what you say, I challenge you to warn every single person you talk to for the rest of your life, or at least try it for a day or so. I assume if they were standing too close to a fire you'd warn them to step away. If you don't warn every single person, then you will have to answer to God for leading them to hell. That's exactly what led me to where I am now. I became overwhelmed when I truly faced what I'd been taught instead of pretending like it wasn't my problem. I asked God with my whole heart, "What do you want me to do?" I didn't know how it could be ok to watch HGTV and pick out a new paint color for my den while most of the people around me were going to die and have their flesh burned forever without any relief today, tomorrow, next year, next century, ever, ever. How could I smile at someone and say, "Have a nice day," and not care if they were going to hell.
I asked God what to do, and he began to reveal His true character to me. Ask Him what He wants you to do. Does He want you to sit in a church somewhere with a bunch of Christians and talk about how glad you are that you're not going to hell? Should you go to a remote part of the world to tell them about Jesus - oops - now they know and maybe they could have been saved if they'd never heard. No one's sure. Maybe you should warn the young woman who is going to have an abortion that her sins will lead her to hell if she doesn't get saved, so then she decides to keep the baby. But what if the baby grows up past the "age of accountability" and goes to hell? Did you do a good deed or not?
My son had a lung transplant when he was 11. His best transplant buddy was a Hindu boy who was 9. He got the call for his transplant 15 minutes before they were going to take away life support for this child. The nurses said you could hear his Mother's screams all throughout the hospital floor, crying for joy. He was doing well until about 14 years old, and then I heard he was in chronic rejection and had only a year or so left. I wondered if maybe the transplant was the worst thing that ever happened to him because he probably lived through the age of accountability and since he's a Hindu.....oh, I didn't even want to think about it. He was the sweetest boy. Isn't there something just basically wrong with that picture?
Christians probably don't really believe down deep in their hearts that God will burn people, or they'd make themselves crazy, like that woman in Texas who killed her babies because they misbehaved and she wanted them dead before they reached that age so they would be saved from hell. To her, it was a noble thing. If hell is true, is that so crazy - save your babies, repent, and be assured of eternity together?
Why would God develop a plan from the foundation of the earth that ended with his will not being done? He desires for all men to be saved, but he developed a plan that he knows has the outcome of only a few being saved?
I suggest that you let your faith in the love of God guide you, and first, ask these tough questions that Christians don't like to ask or even think about. Then, ask God these questions, and then search the scriptures based on what you believe in your heart is God's character, and see if there is another interpretation that hasn't been taught through traditions of men that actually line up with his true character.
When I honestly cared about other people and I honestly confronted God with the tough questions, he began to show me that I didn't have to worry about trying to save people because He already had it under control, through his mercy and grace and His Son's sacrifice.
"All you can do is try to save them before they die." God can do much more than try. He can actually save them, even though I can't.
If you truly believe what you say, I challenge you to warn every single person you talk to for the rest of your life, or at least try it for a day or so. I assume if they were standing too close to a fire you'd warn them to step away. If you don't warn every single person, then you will have to answer to God for leading them to hell. That's exactly what led me to where I am now. I became overwhelmed when I truly faced what I'd been taught instead of pretending like it wasn't my problem. I asked God with my whole heart, "What do you want me to do?" I didn't know how it could be ok to watch HGTV and pick out a new paint color for my den while most of the people around me were going to die and have their flesh burned forever without any relief today, tomorrow, next year, next century, ever, ever. How could I smile at someone and say, "Have a nice day," and not care if they were going to hell.
I asked God what to do, and he began to reveal His true character to me. Ask Him what He wants you to do. Does He want you to sit in a church somewhere with a bunch of Christians and talk about how glad you are that you're not going to hell? Should you go to a remote part of the world to tell them about Jesus - oops - now they know and maybe they could have been saved if they'd never heard. No one's sure. Maybe you should warn the young woman who is going to have an abortion that her sins will lead her to hell if she doesn't get saved, so then she decides to keep the baby. But what if the baby grows up past the "age of accountability" and goes to hell? Did you do a good deed or not?
My son had a lung transplant when he was 11. His best transplant buddy was a Hindu boy who was 9. He got the call for his transplant 15 minutes before they were going to take away life support for this child. The nurses said you could hear his Mother's screams all throughout the hospital floor, crying for joy. He was doing well until about 14 years old, and then I heard he was in chronic rejection and had only a year or so left. I wondered if maybe the transplant was the worst thing that ever happened to him because he probably lived through the age of accountability and since he's a Hindu.....oh, I didn't even want to think about it. He was the sweetest boy. Isn't there something just basically wrong with that picture?
Christians probably don't really believe down deep in their hearts that God will burn people, or they'd make themselves crazy, like that woman in Texas who killed her babies because they misbehaved and she wanted them dead before they reached that age so they would be saved from hell. To her, it was a noble thing. If hell is true, is that so crazy - save your babies, repent, and be assured of eternity together?
Why would God develop a plan from the foundation of the earth that ended with his will not being done? He desires for all men to be saved, but he developed a plan that he knows has the outcome of only a few being saved?
I suggest that you let your faith in the love of God guide you, and first, ask these tough questions that Christians don't like to ask or even think about. Then, ask God these questions, and then search the scriptures based on what you believe in your heart is God's character, and see if there is another interpretation that hasn't been taught through traditions of men that actually line up with his true character.
When I honestly cared about other people and I honestly confronted God with the tough questions, he began to show me that I didn't have to worry about trying to save people because He already had it under control, through his mercy and grace and His Son's sacrifice.
Awesome testimoney BHfT. I went through a similar thought process before I discovered universal salvation.
If you truly believe what you say, I challenge you to warn every single person you talk to for the rest of your life, or at least try it for a day or so. I assume if they were standing too close to a fire you'd warn them to step away. If you don't warn every single person, then you will have to answer to God for leading them to hell.
That is powerful.
"All you can do is try to save them before they die"
Finn, its not up to us to save mankind. Christ already did that, my friend. Christ died on the cross for mankind. It is finished. Salvation is a COMPLETE work of God.
God is the one who:
- brings us into this world
- drags a person to Christ
- gives them a measure of faith
- grants them belief
- and SAVES them
A point I'd like to make regarding "Do You Understand Salvation?" is that Paul said he was shown mercy because he didn't believe, and we have been taught that we are only shown mercy because we believe!!
1 Timothy 1:
12.And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me
faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13.Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14.And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in
Christ Jesus.
15.This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into
the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16.Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth
all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to (not for) life
everlasting.
I think you misinterpret v. 13. Paul is saying he was a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious in ignorant unbelief. When he believed, he obtained mercy.
Romans 3
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
I think you misinterpret v. 13. Paul is saying he was a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious in ignorant unbelief. When he believed, he obtained mercy.
Romans 3
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
He knew and rejected the belief which is why he persecuted them... God showed him what was truth.. that his sins are forgiven.
If you truly believe what you say, I challenge you to warn every single person you talk to for the rest of your life, or at least try it for a day or so. I assume if they were standing too close to a fire you'd warn them to step away. If you don't warn every single person, then you will have to answer to God for leading them to hell.
How am I leading someone to hell if I never even met him/her? Think about it.
In the other hand, if I spent my time trying to convince everyone that it is not necessary to believe in order to be saved, then I would have to answer to God for spreading false doctrine.
No, obviously I cannot personally grant salvation (and I am sure you knew that was not what I meant) but I can help people come closer to God so they can ask to be saved through Him.
Quote:
When I honestly cared about other people and I honestly confronted God with the tough questions, he began to show me that I didn't have to worry about trying to save people because He already had it under control, through his mercy and grace and His Son's sacrifice.
Well, not only do you not worry about spreading the Gospel, you also encourage others to not "worry" about faith.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-19-2010 at 02:08 PM..
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there is another way to God?
