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Old 02-26-2010, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Germany
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Concerning Abraham's bossom

when Abraham died, Scripture says:

Genesis 25:8-10

And Abraham expired and died in a good old age, old and full [of days]; and was gathered to his peoples. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which was opposite to Mamre - the field that Abraham had purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

"Gathered to his peoples" (peoples, Plural) can not refer to his physical body for Abraham was buried in a strange land, his father Terach was buried in Haran:

Genesis 11:32-12:1

And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran. Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father' house, unto a land that I will shew thee

Abraham hardly went to his own bossom when he died, wether literally or figuratively, but scripture says he was gathered to his peoples, his ancestors were no believers - this corresponds only with the believe that all souls are gathered in Sheol which I understand as the grave of the dead souls, wether sinner or saint.

A further point, if righteous people went to the good part of Sheol (Abraham's bossom) before Christ's ressurection as some say, where did righteous people like Abel, Enoch, Noah e.g., went before Abraham lived? -had Abraham's bossom existed, even before Abraham existed? - When was Abraham's bossom established and when have the dead souls been seperated in Sheol? some alloted to bliss, others to torment - the Bible nowhere teaches such a thing.

Abraham's bossom is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible, a seperation between the souls in Sheol/Hades of the righteous and the unrighteuous is nowhere mentioned or implied in the Old Testament or in the NT, rather the opposite (Job 3) - how you do deal with this facts if you understand the story in Luke 16 literally as a describtion of the afterlife?
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Concerning Abraham's bossom

when Abraham died, Scripture says:

Genesis 25:8-10

And Abraham expired and died in a good old age, old and full [of days]; and was gathered to his peoples. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which was opposite to Mamre - the field that Abraham had purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

"Gathered to his peoples" (peoples, Plural) can not refer to his physical body for Abraham was buried in a strange land, his father Terach was buried in Haran:

Genesis 11:32-12:1

And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran. Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father' house, unto a land that I will shew thee

Abraham hardly went to his own bossom when he died, wether literally or figuratively, but scripture says he was gathered to his peoples, his ancestors were no believers - this corresponds only with the believe that all souls are gathered in Sheol which I understand as the grave of the dead souls, wether sinner or saint.

A further point, if righteous people went to the good part of Sheol (Abraham's bossom) before Christ's ressurection as some say, where did righteous people like Abel, Enoch, Noah e.g., went before Abraham lived? -had Abraham's bossom existed, even before Abraham existed? - When was Abraham's bossom established and when have the dead souls been seperated in Sheol? some alloted to bliss, others to torment - the Bible nowhere teaches such a thing.

Abraham's bossom is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible, a seperation between the souls in Sheol/Hades of the righteous and the unrighteuous is nowhere mentioned or implied in the Old Testament or in the NT, rather the opposite (Job 3) - how you do deal with this facts if you understand the story in Luke 16 literally as a describtion of the afterlife?
Thanks for sharing that SvenM, very interesting points . Food for thought
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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When we die we step outside of time therefor by that standard one could assume that Abrahams bossom would be the same at the beginning. Taking this into account we could actually be outside of time watching our own lives playout and unable to do anything about it. This would be hell for some and heaven for others.
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:19 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 5,235,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Concerning Abraham's bossom

when Abraham died, Scripture says:

Genesis 25:8-10

And Abraham expired and died in a good old age, old and full [of days]; and was gathered to his peoples. And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which was opposite to Mamre - the field that Abraham had purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

"Gathered to his peoples" (peoples, Plural) can not refer to his physical body for Abraham was buried in a strange land, his father Terach was buried in Haran:

Genesis 11:32-12:1

And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran. Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father' house, unto a land that I will shew thee

Abraham hardly went to his own bossom when he died, wether literally or figuratively, but scripture says he was gathered to his peoples, his ancestors were no believers - this corresponds only with the believe that all souls are gathered in Sheol which I understand as the grave of the dead souls, wether sinner or saint.

A further point, if righteous people went to the good part of Sheol (Abraham's bossom) before Christ's ressurection as some say, where did righteous people like Abel, Enoch, Noah e.g., went before Abraham lived? -had Abraham's bossom existed, even before Abraham existed? - When was Abraham's bossom established and when have the dead souls been seperated in Sheol? some alloted to bliss, others to torment - the Bible nowhere teaches such a thing.

Abraham's bossom is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible, a seperation between the souls in Sheol/Hades of the righteous and the unrighteuous is nowhere mentioned or implied in the Old Testament or in the NT, rather the opposite (Job 3) - how you do deal with this facts if you understand the story in Luke 16 literally as a describtion of the afterlife?
Abraham's bosom was a Jewish term, and it was for the children of faith, for Abraham is the father of faith.

The places -the hollows in the earth/ Sheol is described totally in 1 Enoch.
Sheol is from the word for "hollow". The "hollow" which Abraham and the righteous went to wait for the Atonement in, is described in 1 Enoch. The souls in sheol could see and converse across the "hollows" which were separated by great impassable caverns.
Quote:
[Chapter 22] 1 Enoch

1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.



3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'


I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying:

'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'


8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.



[Luke 16, the water for the righteous was requested by the rich man in torments]


And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits.


There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners.


Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
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Old 02-27-2010, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Germany
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The places -the hollows in the earth/ Sheol is described totally in 1 Enoch. Sheol is from the word for "hollow".

as far as I know, sheol is derived from shaal – to ask; "hollow" seems to be nabab , your etymology seems to be wrong.

The book of Enoch describes sheol consisting of four compartments (XXII, 3), whereas in Jesus' parable only two compartments are mentioned:

And there were †four† hollow places in it, deep and very smooth: †three† of them were dark and one bright; and there was a fountain of water in its midst. And I said: '†How† smooth are these hollow places, and deep and dark to view.'

The book of Enoch further describes an intermediate class of sinners who will be neither judged nor raised from the dead (XXII, 13):

And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are godless, and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.

this contradicts John 5:28, Acts 24:15, Revelation 20:13 and 1 Corinthians 15:22

there seem to be further problems and inconsistencies within the book of Enoch which you may read here:

Why don't you use the Book of Enoch?

I cannot understand how anyone can consider this book of divine origin or even to be written by Enoch himself.

Quote:
When we die we step outside of time therefor by that standard one could assume that Abrahams bossom would be the same at the beginning.
so you believe when we die, we leave time and enter eternity? - sounds rather Platonic than biblically, I'm quite sure you'll find no verse in the Bible to support that view.

Quote:
Interestingly, in the vocabulary of Plato the word AION applies to things belonging to the world of eternal ideas — the core of Plato’s philosophy of the world. It is that pagan meaning which has been foisted on our translations, as though Platonic metaphysics are the basis of what the prophets and Jesus said about the future! Little wonder, then, that people expect souls to enter at death an eternal, timeless heavenly realm. But nobody would have received that impression from the Bible
http://thefaithofjesus.blogspot.com/2007/09/aionios-word-to-unlock-future.html

is this not what you believe also? - but this would be a different discussion

Last edited by svenM; 02-27-2010 at 04:09 AM..
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
as far as I know, sheol is derived from shaal – to ask; "hollow" seems to be nabab , your etymology seems to be wrong.
You need to know more correctly, and I find it hard to believe that you found the "to ask" word and missed the "to be hollow word" with the same spelling.
You must use the Hebrew in context with the definitions given for the abode of the dead, which definition was laid out in 1 Enoch, for all the world to know. Enoch described four hollows under the earth: four separate compartments for souls and angels and demons [90% of the demons are held there until the tribulation, as pr Jubilees].

sha'al =to be hollow. It is usually translated as "pit", in English.
That pit/sha'al has souls in it who certainly talk with one another, and who are kept abreast of what goes on topside by those who descend to the pit/the hollows, who tell of it. They can't do anything about what goes on topside, as all their plans are ended which have to do with topside -under the sun; but they are certainly not uninformed because of those who come down and who join them there, in their places, as Scripture shows -Even AbraHAM knew all about the "certain" rich man and his deeds, from his acquaintance with Lazarus, the former beggar, before the rich man arrived.



Enoch went on a tour of Sheol, a place under the earth made of four hollows/ sha'al, made for the fallen angels and for the departed souls of Adam/men to be kept in until their own appointed days [different appointments for men based on their lives lived] and for the 200 fallen Watcher angels to be chained in.

One hollow was for the righteous to rest in peace, with bright springs of water; one was for those whose blood was shed by unrequited murder [imagine the numbers of murdered babies' souls there!], and who cry for vengeance for their blood, until it is requited by the Avenger [Jesus is the Avenger of blood of all Adam kind, who will requite the blood of all innocent, slain human beings, when He comes to judge, as Abel the prophet first declared to Cain, in his prophecy which made Abel the first prophet, just as Jesus said he was, and which prophecy of Abel can be read in the book of the Upright/Jasher].


Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
The book of Enoch describes sheol consisting of four compartments (XXII, 3), whereas in Jesus' parable only two compartments are mentioned:
Luke 16 is not a parable in the telling of the beggar and the certain rich man and their places in Sheol and the certain rich man's desire that his brothers be warned not to come to this place of torment. It is fact.
The two hollows Enoch described in which they were in, in Luke 16, is all that entered into Jesus' relating of those two men. Jesus is not laying a foundation for Sheol, in Luke 16, but remarking on what was already laid foundationally in Enoch, which is the foundational book for all the doctrines of the OT and NT, which were laid out once, in Enoch, for all time and nations, and never relaid. Jesus used Enoch exclusively for His own Gospel, which Gospel was hidden in the Oracles given to His namesake people of the New Man name, through Moses, but Enoch told of that, even, first.
Jesus descended to the lowest level of Sheol, where the fallen Watchers were chained, to announce the Atonement finished and Adam redeemed, and to dump the load of sins and iniquities laid on His soul, by the Father, on the cross [Isaiah 53] to fulfill the oracle of the Day of Atonement, as the "goat for Azazel", on whom all the sins and iniquities of all the people of the Name [Israel] were laid/transferred, once, yearly, when the goat sent "to Azazel" was sent away with those sins and iniquities transferred to him, "to Azazel", as a rehearsal of the Day of Atonement which was to come, when Azazel, chained in Sheol below earth, was given all sin, transferred first to the goat who would be sent away "to azazel", by the laying on of hands and confession of those sins and iniquities by the High Priest in Israel.
Azazel is translated wrongly as "scapegoat" in English, which is blindness of the translators because 1 Enoch was hidden from them by Rome, four hundred years after Enoch was used as sacred writing/Scripture by the early Church -and by Jesus, who called it Scripture in Matthew 22: 29,30, when He rebuked the Sadducees for error, not knowing the Scripture written by Enoch where these things were told about the state of the resurrected saints.

1 Enoch only, explains the Day of Atonement and the reason the sins were transferred to the goat elected by lot "to azazel", to be sent away "to azazel", who was chained "in the wilderness" the barren place insha'al.


Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
The book of Enoch further describes an intermediate class of sinners who will be neither judged nor raised from the dead (XXII, 13):

And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are godless, and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.
You have a faulty translation, the word is slain, not punished, and the spirit of those who are bound there, in Sheol forever, is never raised from there; but Jesus tells us, and Enoch told us, that the persons/souls will be raised in their own individual bodies of flesh, and they who are forever separated from the spirit of their created being are "never dying worms", who can never be regenerated in spirit, as all believers are, nor then can they be regenerated in body, but they will remain in the defiled Adam flesh bodies forever and forever, in the lake of fire where the worm never dies, as Enoch and Isaiah and Jesus said.
Quote:

And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever.

And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Only the souls reunited with the bodies of the sinners will be raised and tormented in eternal fire [second death] forever, as Jesus says, where "the worm does not die".


Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I cannot understand how anyone can consider this book of divine origin or even to be written by Enoch himself.
That is only because you have been willfully kept in the dark about its history and the history of the Nwew Testament believers, who used it and who called it Scripture.
It is called Scripture by Jesus and by the early Christians and by the Jews who studied it as Scripture, among whom were the OT Jews who had it; and the DSS manuscripts prove that they called it Scripture. The Ethiopian Jews who converted to the Gospel of Christ in the early days of the NT era kept it in their "canon/list" of "sacred writing collections/Bible", and there it remains today, as sacred Scripture in their Bible.
Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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I would suggest that it is a parable and not speaking about the afterlife. But rather the contrast between the old covenant and the new.
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Germany
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You have a faulty translation, the word is slain, not punished, and the spirit of those who are bound there, in Sheol forever, is never raised from there
there are several manuscripts - the Ethiopic version might be the translation of a translation anyway, the German translations have punished, some English translations support this alternative reading so I chose these, slain further carries the notion of annihilation that seems to appear in many instances in the book of Enoch, further the different translations partly vary pretty much. Wether slain or punish, the contradiction remains - Jesus said there will be a ressurection of all, the book of Enoch says for all class of sinners there will be no ressurection, this is a major contradiction in my opinion!
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:22 PM
 
Location: on a green & blue ball called earth
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I quote you from this point in order to shorten my post page; * I have underlined the part of your post that I would like to address.

"Abraham hardly went to his own bossom when he died, wether literally or figuratively, but scripture says he was gathered to his peoples, his ancestors were no believers - this corresponds only with the believe that all souls are gathered in Sheol which I understand as the grave of the dead souls, wether sinner or saint.

A further point, if righteous people went to the good part of Sheol (Abraham's bossom) before Christ's ressurection as some say, where did righteous people like Abel, Enoch, Noah e.g., went before Abraham lived? -had Abraham's bossom existed, even before Abraham existed? - When was Abraham's bossom established and when have the dead souls been seperated in Sheol? some alloted to bliss, others to torment - the Bible nowhere teaches such a thing.

Abraham's bossom is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible, a seperation between the souls in Sheol/Hades of the righteous and the unrighteuous is nowhere mentioned or implied in the Old Testament or in the NT, rather the opposite (Job 3) -
how you do deal with this facts if you understand the story in Luke 16 literally as a describtion of the afterlife?"

here is where I saw how to deal with the fact of souls being in one place together before the death of "Jesus." you say nowhere in the bible is it mentioned or implied that they were separated at death, before "Jesus" death. you wanna know how was it possible for both the righteous and unrighteous to be in the same place at the same time and they not all suffer the same torment.

there is so much bible I could show you to balance out this entire post, BUT for lack of time and space I will show you one greatly mention and implied truth. keep in mind that the entire "WORD/bible" works together proclaiming ONE message. I will only give you one show that point to many others, but I cannot go into all of it.

here is the testimony of one greatly mention and implied truth:

the record of these three; in the book of Daniel - ...Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king. 14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?......but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? .....

19Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. 20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 22 23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them. 28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

the above testimony is the profession of truth about what?

those who are made pure by the purging fires of righteousness cannot be burned in the fire that burns with torment. our works are tried by fire ,and we are tried by the fires of temptations, and persecution. we either come forth as pure gold, or we are consumed like the soldiers who tossed them in.

the above witness proves that the righteous could do no more in hell except fellowship with those who are also purified showing us that hells flames, and torments of eternal damnation works only upon those laden with sin, and WITHOUT a Savior. "Jesus" walks with his own, and talks with his own, while hell rages on like it did when the tides roared wildly as Peter walked on the water to and with hHIM.

Safety really is with HIM, and he truly is the WAY, even in hell where there was no way out...UNTIL HE SHOWED UP of course and brings his own out. once he departed... coming forth with his own, there just is no, nor will there ever be again an exit from hell. makes no difference where we are, so long as we are in his hand ,those things that torment the wicked only rock us to sleep.

I hope I explained this well; the three Hebrew boys showed us why hell is no place for the saint.....we concern ourselves with fellowship with our Savior, sister's, brother's of the faith, AND we don't wanna have to hear the screams of the lost while we fellowship. {at least I don't}....I'm glad he has prepared a place for us ,cause hell aint pretty ,even if it burns me not, I still want a lovely place to dwell. {smile}
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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I'd kind of like to get involved in this discussion, but I'm having a hard time seeing where it's supposed to be going. Sven, briefly what do you believe the scripture concerning Abraham's bosom to mean? And where do you believe people go to await the resurrection?
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