The mental impact of believing in eternal torment (Jehovah, hell, punishment)
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Supporters of eternal torment often say that those who opposite it; whether conditionalists/annihilationists, universalists, or even JW's do so on emotional grounds; putting their feelings ahead of scripture. The same feelings, in fact, that make torture a violation of human rights. But that's another issue all together.
I'm just interested in the toll on mental health believing in eternal torment takes; even if it is real, one has to admit that dwelling on it far too much is unhealthy and can lead to serious mental problems. I cite my own case and those of countless others. I remember at age 13 having anxiety attacks over the fact most of my friends and the people around me would be burning forever for not accepting Christ. I would literally barely be able to eat or sleep. Whenever I burned myself on the oven or read about people being burned on the stake in the Middle Ages I imagined people in hell experiencing this forever and ever. Watering down by calling it 'separation from God' or making the fires 'metaphorical' doesn't really negate the fact hell will be unimaginably terrible whatever it is, and the fact it's punishment that wants to make whoever is being punished suffer as much as possible. Saying people 'choose' hell is both unbiblical and incorrect. Whatever you want to say about free will God's word makes it abundantly clear there will be an 'elect' (not 'those who choose') that God has elected. Many are invited but few are CHOSEN.
I admit I think it's absurd and am repelled by it, but also don't think the Bible, nor history, teaches it. But the point of this thread is not ANOTHER argument for the debate. I'd like input from those on both sides, if possible, on what you perceive to be the possible effects on your life on believing this doctrine. I'm not saying those who believe it are nut-cases or will turn mad, because many seem quite comfortable believing it (I thought I could be at times, but the whole picture seemed to crumble over time as did my conviction over the character of God) and it's well within their rights. If God really ordained it, then so be it. But there are an awful lot of people that will be screwed no matter how much you evangelize (not that I'm saying we shouldn't, it should still spur us on). Unless God is planning to do something he hasn't told us about in his Holy scriptures.
My point is, especially if you are indoctrinated with this belief from a young age, and you take your faith seriously, it colours every aspect of your life. I don't want to say anything negative, because the core of faith should be about love and wanting to serve God, but fear is definitely an element there. It has to be. I mean if you come up with the worst fate possible, a fate worse than death (both terrible and fantastic), and you're living your life with even the inkling you might be at risk of it (after all, who can be 100% sure?), the intensity of it's fear is bound to permeate all your thoughts and actions. Believe me, for a time I really tried to believe it and accept it - even as my conscience said something was wrong (long before I even knew any other options existed), but I found I couldn't really. God represented fear, almost. I knew this was no real relationship. It was only after I discovered the possibility God would show some mercy did I really begin to see the love of God. If this is a false God, then it's a cruel deception. Now I'd love to believe Universalism is true, but I don't think it's Biblical. I don't embrace Annihilationism or Conditionalism per se, but after thinking way too much about it and seeking God's will I can't see how eternal torment - eternal agony in hell - is truly compatible with a God who is merciful in any meaningful sense. With this version of Hell life seems nightmarish; the Good News is very good, no doubt, but thinking of all those who would not only get to share in this but would also suffer a trillionfold for their sins put a definite damper on that. It should sober up anyone who has any iota of compassion in them. Yes, I congratulate those spurred to complete the 'Great Commission' for this, but the whole doctrine makes life, existence and the universe kind of nightmarish for the majority of humanity. Try as I might I couldn't ignore this 'reality' for long and as great as heaven is I don't feel happy at all believing in eternal torment. Saying it's 'not that bad' isn't an option anymore.
For awhile I was torn between the 'sides' of the argument, would study the scriptures carefully and construct a detailed picture of what would happen to the wicked; but now I'm just sick of it. Whatever happens will happens, but I'm not going to embrace eternal torment or call it fair because of any clever philosophical or supposed biblical reason for it. I can see the fingerprints of man on it, but if it's really God's plan then maybe we should fear him more than anything else. I suppose even if it came to that I'd have to pin my colours to the flag, but then have you thought with this kind of fear how meaningful the love for God really is?
I'm just interested in the toll on mental health believing in eternal torment takes; even if it is real, one has to admit that dwelling on it far too much is unhealthy and can lead to serious mental problems. I cite my own case and those of countless others. I remember at age 13 having anxiety attacks over the fact most of my friends and the people around me would be burning forever for not accepting Christ.
Nobody will get worse than they deserve. It does not matter who you know, they will get either what they richly deserve, or better than they deserve- if they are truly in Christ. God is not unjust. He cannot blame anyone for what they are not forced to admit to.
Now a return to medieval superstition and oppression is undesirable, but what the medievals understood was something of the seriousness of sin. They accepted that eternal damnation was reasonable. But the number of people today who are really in fear of God is infinitesimal. One has only to read the internet to discover the blatant, unconscionable lies that pour out of computers.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Though, to be frank, knowledge of just how unbelievably corrupt is this world is enough to make any fair-minded person think that there ought to be a hell, if there isn't one. Some people are just as Peter described them, brute beasts, creatures of untrammeled animal instinct, fit only for slaughter. Though that was an insult to beasts.
We are all much worse than we think we are. If we don't like the idea of going to hell, we can choose to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and live in gratitude for that sacrifice. And if God is true and faithful, we will do that, because that is what those who deserve to live do. God is asking us only to do what we ought to do.
Whatever happens will happens, but I'm not going to embrace eternal torment or call it fair because of any clever philosophical or supposed biblical reason for it. I can see the fingerprints of man on it, but if it's really God's plan then maybe we should fear him more than anything else. I suppose even if it came to that I'd have to pin my colours to the flag, but then have you thought with this kind of fear how meaningful the love for God really is?
This is why my hope is in Christ ! Because God's word is His word. I don't know what will happen to those who will not receive Christ in this life as the Scripture teach. Yet, the bible is very clear and does gives us some description of something not very good at all, is coming to pass for those who will not believe in this life, but will face a judgment after death, that will separate, destroy them eternally from God.
I was not indoctrinated with the fear or of that which will happen after one dies to create a fear..... nor do I sit around dwelling upon it.
I believe it is because of the faith given to me by God when He called my life out of a life of sin to believe and walk in Him. He has created the confidence in what Christ has done in my life, reassuring my heart of the blessed hope for those who will believe.
Yes, you are correct about Universalism, eternal torment, conditionalists/annihilations because one really doesn't know what exactly God is going to do with those who will not believe His message given to us through Christ Jesus. And all that man speculates about it, to me is not trusting God! Our hearts should be focused upon Christ Jesus and living the life He has given to each one, a life of abundance in Him, now, today is our hope.
He (Jesus) came to set the captive free and when one is free, you are free indeed. Freedom in Him from all sin and all that which creates fear, tormenting us, vexing our spirits, stealing the joy of His presence in our lives, causing one to walk fretting, doubting about that which we have no control over.
But trusting God in all things regardless of what our spiritual, physical eyes see, that logic, trying to reason within ourselves of that which is to come.
The enemy of our hearts loves to place and play those kind of games in our minds, but we are told to cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, that every child of God is given that ability through the Holy Spirit to bring every one of those thoughts into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
I would go so far to say that doctrine of everlasting torment is more based on human sentiments and (pseudo)philosophical arguments then opposite teachings.
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jeremiah 7:31
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:16
This are strong statements against everlasting torment.
I think most people have a problem with everlasting torment in one or another way, why should this be the case if it were something divine and holy? - "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" (Job 4:17)
I think people who believe it, soften it in their mind, that only the utterly wicked will experience this doom and possibly they don't believe it deep in their heart or they never have taugt about it.
Honestly, the idea that a just and loving God sentences any of His creatures to endless torture is grotesque, no wonder christianity is mocked by the secular world, it presents a picture of a god that appears highly schizophrene and presents a contradictionary and inconsistent picture of God and the teaching of the bible.
Any sincere Christian should have a interest to oppose the doctrine of everlasting torment or at least question it, this is my opinion.
I was raised with different beliefs than I now have.
Back then, the fear of eternal torment kept me in line alright; but in my heart I could not make myself love or even obey/worship a God who would hold eternal torment over my head to make me do what He wanted. Nope, that is not a God that I would worship- that is a sadist dictator.
The Bible taught me that Jehovah God would never even think of doing anything like that to His worshipers. The fear of Jehovah God is a reverential awe and nothing like the morbid fear of a sadistic ruler who uses mental and emotional fear to control and hold eternal torment over their heads.
That's just sick... and NOT what and who HE is.
"You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." John 8:32- one of the things the truth sets you free from, is misconceptions like eternal torment. What a relief it is too.
I think that most of the people who believe in eternal torment are 100% convinced that they're not going to ever experience it. There is no mental anguish for them because it's something that's going to happen to someone else -- someone who "really deserves it." My problem with these folks is that the number of people they see as "really deserving it" is astronomical. If they thought for one minute that they were going to be among those who were going to be God's eternal firewood, they'd be emotional wrecks for sure.
Supporters of eternal torment often say that those who opposite it; whether conditionalists/annihilationists, universalists, or even JW's do so on emotional grounds; putting their feelings ahead of scripture. The same feelings, in fact, that make torture a violation of human rights. But that's another issue all together.
I'm just interested in the toll on mental health believing in eternal torment takes; even if it is real, one has to admit that dwelling on it far too much is unhealthy and can lead to serious mental problems. I cite my own case and those of countless others. I remember at age 13 having anxiety attacks over the fact most of my friends and the people around me would be burning forever for not accepting Christ. I would literally barely be able to eat or sleep. Whenever I burned myself on the oven or read about people being burned on the stake in the Middle Ages I imagined people in hell experiencing this forever and ever. Watering down by calling it 'separation from God' or making the fires 'metaphorical' doesn't really negate the fact hell will be unimaginably terrible whatever it is, and the fact it's punishment that wants to make whoever is being punished suffer as much as possible. Saying people 'choose' hell is both unbiblical and incorrect. Whatever you want to say about free will God's word makes it abundantly clear there will be an 'elect' (not 'those who choose') that God has elected. Many are invited but few are CHOSEN.
I admit I think it's absurd and am repelled by it, but also don't think the Bible, nor history, teaches it. But the point of this thread is not ANOTHER argument for the debate. I'd like input from those on both sides, if possible, on what you perceive to be the possible effects on your life on believing this doctrine. I'm not saying those who believe it are nut-cases or will turn mad, because many seem quite comfortable believing it (I thought I could be at times, but the whole picture seemed to crumble over time as did my conviction over the character of God) and it's well within their rights. If God really ordained it, then so be it. But there are an awful lot of people that will be screwed no matter how much you evangelize (not that I'm saying we shouldn't, it should still spur us on). Unless God is planning to do something he hasn't told us about in his Holy scriptures.
My point is, especially if you are indoctrinated with this belief from a young age, and you take your faith seriously, it colours every aspect of your life. I don't want to say anything negative, because the core of faith should be about love and wanting to serve God, but fear is definitely an element there. It has to be. I mean if you come up with the worst fate possible, a fate worse than death (both terrible and fantastic), and you're living your life with even the inkling you might be at risk of it (after all, who can be 100% sure?), the intensity of it's fear is bound to permeate all your thoughts and actions. Believe me, for a time I really tried to believe it and accept it - even as my conscience said something was wrong (long before I even knew any other options existed), but I found I couldn't really. God represented fear, almost. I knew this was no real relationship. It was only after I discovered the possibility God would show some mercy did I really begin to see the love of God. If this is a false God, then it's a cruel deception. Now I'd love to believe Universalism is true, but I don't think it's Biblical. I don't embrace Annihilationism or Conditionalism per se, but after thinking way too much about it and seeking God's will I can't see how eternal torment - eternal agony in hell - is truly compatible with a God who is merciful in any meaningful sense. With this version of Hell life seems nightmarish; the Good News is very good, no doubt, but thinking of all those who would not only get to share in this but would also suffer a trillionfold for their sins put a definite damper on that. It should sober up anyone who has any iota of compassion in them. Yes, I congratulate those spurred to complete the 'Great Commission' for this, but the whole doctrine makes life, existence and the universe kind of nightmarish for the majority of humanity. Try as I might I couldn't ignore this 'reality' for long and as great as heaven is I don't feel happy at all believing in eternal torment. Saying it's 'not that bad' isn't an option anymore.
For awhile I was torn between the 'sides' of the argument, would study the scriptures carefully and construct a detailed picture of what would happen to the wicked; but now I'm just sick of it. Whatever happens will happens, but I'm not going to embrace eternal torment or call it fair because of any clever philosophical or supposed biblical reason for it. I can see the fingerprints of man on it, but if it's really God's plan then maybe we should fear him more than anything else. I suppose even if it came to that I'd have to pin my colours to the flag, but then have you thought with this kind of fear how meaningful the love for God really is?
I too once believed in eternal punishment for the unredeemed and had believed it from a young age until well into my thirties. When I finally and confidently arrived at the conclusion that this doctrine is false, it was due more to logic and reason than emotion.
However while I was a believer in this repugnant doctrine, the emotional toll was anything but minimal. I remember the emotional torture of trying to convince my loved ones to accept Christ or face an eternity in hell. I remember not being able to fathom why any sane person would reject this offer. It made no sense when the choice was so clear and simple. But so many I loved just didn’t get it and I was crushed.
Although I never reached this point, in retrospect I can see how the belief in eternal punishment and the knowledge that many we love are headed there can actually have the opposite effect of strengthening the resolve to evangelize. I can picture someone who after numerous attempts to convince people of their impending doom but with no result, an actual hardening of that persons feelings toward those he or she loves. A person cannot carry the emotional agony of knowing their loved ones horrible final destiny for ever and sometimes it is easier to close off and no longer care. This sounds cruel on the surface, but I believe anyone who does this probably does so slowly and subconsciously and as a protective measure to their sanity for indeed it is a heavy burden to carry.
You had mentioned that you could see the fingerprints of man on this doctrine and you are correct. As I began to study scripture more critically and also study the history of church dogma, I discovered that there were competing theories of the atonement and soteriology in the early history of Christianity. There were Universalists and annihilationists back then as well as today. The satisfaction doctrine of the atonement won the day and like many doctrines, it was based in the political culture of the time. St Anselm bishop of Canterbury (1033-1099) was the champion of this theory in his book Cur Deus Homo and it subsequently became the official doctrine of the Church.
The political culture in which St. Anselm lived was a feudal culture and offenses in that time were punished based on the status of the offended. In other words the same crime committed against a commoner and landlord would not be punished equally. The punishment was more severe when the crime was against the landlord because of his higher social status. Anselm took this ideology to its logical conclusion by postulating that since God is infinite, an offense against him must carry infinite punishment. Thus only eternal punishment could satisfy God’s sense of justice. There is more pertaining to Christ having to be God incarnate but that is not pertinent to the topic of the thread.
So while my transition from believing in eternal punishment for the unredeemed to rejecting the doctrine was not for emotional reasons, the realization that this doctrine is not true obviously had a positive impact on my emotions.
I too once believed in eternal punishment for the unredeemed and had believed it from a young age until well into my thirties. When I finally and confidently arrived at the conclusion that this doctrine is false, it was due more to logic and reason than emotion.
However while I was a believer in this repugnant doctrine
Although I never reached this point, in retrospect I can see how the belief in eternal punishment and the knowledge that many we love are headed there can actually have the opposite effect of strengthening the resolve to evangelize. I can picture someone who after numerous attempts to convince people of their impending doom but with no result, an actual hardening of that persons feelings toward those he or she loves. A person cannot carry the emotional agony of knowing their loved ones horrible final destiny for ever and sometimes it is easier to close off and no longer care. This sounds cruel on the surface, but I believe anyone who does this probably does so slowly and subconsciously and as a protective measure to their sanity for indeed it is a heavy burden to carry.
I had never considered that. That would truly be a heavy burden and I can see how a person would simply have to "close off." That was an excellent point.
If his creatures are inherently evil, nothing could be more appropriate for them than permanent punishment.
God created us this way as humans to eat of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" - We have no say in being born human but we do have control over what we choose to believe and do (this seems similar to the symbol of the mark of the beast forehead = mind and beliefs and hand = actions)
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Your ways are not my ways.
My problem with these folks is that the number of people they see as "really deserving it" is astronomical. If they thought for one minute that they were going to be among those who were going to be God's eternal firewood, they'd be emotional wrecks for sure.