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Old 04-24-2010, 10:23 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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There is a false teaching called Replacement Theology that states that the church is Spiritual Israel. According to this belief, the church has replaced Israel, and the promises that were made to Israel were transfered to the church. Those who hold to this line of thought say that there will be no future national Israel. This denies the literalness of the prophecies in the scriptures that implicitly state that Israel is to be restored. The only way to ignore these prophecies is to allegorize or spiritualize them.

Dispensationally, the church is competely separate from Israel. They are in fact, two separate peoples. In the church-age, the church-the body of Christ is comprised of both Gentile and Jewish believers and is declared to be a new creation.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold new things have come.

Only Jewish believers, descended from Abraham and more specifically, from Jacob, are said to be 'spiritual Israel.' Not the Church as a whole.

A passage that is misunderstood and which is in large part responsible for the erroneous idea that the church has replaced Israel or has become spiritual Israel is Gal. 6:15-16.

Gal. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation, 16) And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the true Israel of God.

The adherents of replacement theology take this passage to mean that the church is spiritual Israel-the true Israel of God. But that's not what it is sayiing. Paul was contrasting Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, who because they were believers were spiritual descendants as well as physical descendants of Abraham, with the professing Jewish Christians, the Judaizers, who were attempting to compel the Gentile believers to undergo circumcision and the old Jewish rituals of Judaism.

Gal. 6:12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13) For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh.

What Paul was saying was that not all Israel was Israel, but only the regenerate Jew.

Rom. 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who in one inwardly; and circumcison is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament

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For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a ''spiritual Israel'' or a ''new Israel.'' The term ''Israel'' is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the church in general, or of Gentile believers in particular.

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

Excerpt:

Quote:
quote
The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to Heaven at the rapture. (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.
unquote
Bible Questions Answered

O, Jerusalem! | thebereancall.org

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However, there are many distinctions: Israel is promised a country and a city on this earth, the church a home in heaven. Israel will be ruled by Christ, the church will rule Israel and the world with Him. Two-thirds of all Jews on earth will be killed under Antichrist (Zec 13:8-9); but the church will not be on earth at that time, having been married to Christ in heaven (Rev 19:7,8). Israel will recognize Christ for the first time at His Second Coming; the church will arrive with Him from heaven in triumph (Zec 14:4,5; Jude 14) as His bride, never to leave His side.

IS THE CHURCH

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Quote:

Gal. 3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham, but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arab's, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

Replacement Theology Its Origins, Teachings and Er (http://www.new-bible-truth.com/replacement-theology-its-origins-teachings-and-er.php - broken link)

Excerpt:

Quote:

Replacement Theology is closely associated with reformed (or Covenant) Theology, the brand of Theology historically linked to John Calvin (1509-1564)
and the Protestant Reformation. Reformed/Covenant Theology, in turn, is closely associated with amillennialism, an eschatological view with a spiritualized (rather than literal-historical) interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures. The natural affinity these views (that is, Replacement Theology and amillennialism) seem to have for each other is understandable because Replacement Theology relies so heavily on a non-literal and allegorical interpretation of the Biblical promises to Israel.

In order to understand the Scriptures and rightly divide the word of truth, the dispensational nature of God's plan must be recognized and the distinction between Israel and the church maintained.

Last edited by Michael Way; 04-24-2010 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:54 AM
 
8,935 posts, read 8,300,572 times
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...The only way former gentiles are Jews are that Jesus was a decendent of the tribe of Judah, and all believer are adopted in to this tribe spiritually,,,,,,,,,,, but the unknown author of the Book of Hebrew 7 who rejected the all the line of sons of levi who where called to be the priest of the temple and went back to Abraham who payed the tithes to Melchisedec King of Salem priest of the most high...... See this is when the city was called Salem which later would be called Jersalem...... which would reject the former priest and sons of levi and their works to a New Covenment where Jesus a person who was not levi, to rule as the High Priest,,,,, See Melchisedec was not a levi because he came before levi the son of Jacob was even born.... as the result the Blessing of Abraham will come on the Gentiles though Jesus Christ and NOT the line of ISRAEL or Jacob, but through the spirit instead, and not the law that dominated the Priesthood of the Son of Levi.......
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:28 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 17,413,902 times
Reputation: 7519
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
...The only way former gentiles are Jews are that Jesus was a decendent of the tribe of Judah, and all believer are adopted in to this tribe spiritually,,,,,,,,,,, but the unknown author of the Book of Hebrew 7 who rejected the all the line of sons of levi who where called to be the priest of the temple and went back to Abraham who payed the tithes to Melchisedec King of Salem priest of the most high...... See this is when the city was called Salem which later would be called Jersalem...... which would reject the former priest and sons of levi and their works to a New Covenment where Jesus a person who was not levi, to rule as the High Priest,,,,, See Melchisedec was not a levi because he came before levi the son of Jacob was even born.... as the result the Blessing of Abraham will come on the Gentiles though Jesus Christ and NOT the line of ISRAEL or Jacob, but through the spirit instead, and not the law that dominated the Priesthood of the Son of Levi.......
Hi hljc,


Since the Levitical priesthood was wiped out along with the genealogical records it means any physical Jew, a descendant of the gentile Abram, is also to seek the order of Melchisedec. That is why it was explained in a book titled Hebrews. Hebrews was not written to gentiles.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:30 PM
 
118 posts, read 161,573 times
Reputation: 73
Jesus said:

John 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said un him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Jews were stating to Jesus that Abraham was their father based on their blood relation with him. This was their argument that they were the children of Abraham. Christ states the exact opposite. It was not blood relation that made them children of God but their faith in Him alone. Since the Jews around Him rejected Him Christ stated that their Father was not Abraham and that their father was the devil.
Christ's words stated clearly it was faith in Him, not blood lineage or race that made a child of God. Most of Israel rejected Him and therefore were not children of God.

Romans 9

2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Paul is making a destinction here. Not all Israel was Israel. He goes further by stating that:

Romans 9

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.


Natural Israel even though as numerous as the sand by the sea, only a small portion of natural "blood relation" Israel would be saved. The majority of natural Israel would not be. But Abraham was to have

Hebrews 11

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.


If this is only the last generation of Israel in the future then they could never number like the stars in the sky or the sand on the seashore. Also, most believe that the remnant has not occurred yet. Well what about the Jews who did receive the Gospel in the 1st Century?

The disciples who received the Gospel and the thousands upon thousands who received the Gospel through Peter and others were ALL Jews. The remnant of Israel DID receive the Gospel. To state the remnant has not happened yet is to totally ignore the believing Jews of the 1st century.

Israel was not the Israel of blood lineage as stated by Jesus but those that received the Gospel by faith in Christ. They were Israel. The Gospel went to them first and then through Paul, believing gentiles were grafted in along with the believing Jews making the ONE children of God. There are not two. Scripture clearly states that in Christ:

Galations 3

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


In Christ there is no distinction. It is not by race or blood lineage that makes Israel. God only sees

1) Those in Christ.
2) Those not in Christ.

Are their Jews today coming into the kingdom through Christ? Of course! Are their gentiles today coming into the Kingdom through Christ? Of course! All share in the inheritance of Abraham who as Romans clearly states:

Romans 4

20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


It was faith that was credited to Abraham just as all those who have faith in Christ become the Children of God or Israel.

There is no special favoritism for ethnic Israel today only because if there was it would be based upon their blood lineage which is against Christ's own words that only faith can save them. If any Jew today received the Gospel they become part of the ONE Children of God already made up of believing Jews and Gentiles for the past 2000 years in which there is no distinction but their faith.

If Israel indeed was only referring to the last generation in the end of days then 2000+ years of Israel has perished. The last generation of Israel is the only Israel spoken of and they cannot number like the stars in the sky or the sands on the seashore.

But if Israel is not blood Israel today but made up of the believing Jews and Gentiles of the 1st Century and every Century since then (so far 21 Centuries) then that indeed does number like the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore. Simple logic.

The original comment was that the Church could not have replaced Israel. Well, it didn't replace Israel. It was Israel. Israel began FIRST with guess who????????

Believing Jews such as Peter, John, James etc........ALL JEWS!

Then believing Gentiles were grafted in. THERE CANNOT BE A REPLACEMENT if Israel began with the believing Jews of the 1st Century. The Church never replaced anyone. It was always meant to be part of the one Children of God made up of all those of faith.

We cannot ignore the Jews of the 1st Century, the remnant. They were the first fruits of the Church. The original poster is correct the Church didn't replace Israel but to ignore the fact that the Church began with believing Jews is to ignore all the Jews who received Christ in the 1st Century. There is not the Church and Israel, there is only those of faith, the Church which is Israel.

THE CHURCH BEGAN WITH BELIEVING JEWS FIRST. Believing Gentiles were then added to the Church.

All nations since the first century have the opportunity to become the one Children of God through Christ. Not just ethnic Israel today, but India, Syria, Russia, China etc. Israel has been growing everyday for the past 2000 years and has not ended. God truly has given Children to Abraham as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore.

Last edited by Romulus0; 04-27-2010 at 11:41 PM.. Reason: Grammer
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:04 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
27,742 posts, read 20,448,568 times
Reputation: 12350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
Jesus said:

John 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said un him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Jews were stating to Jesus that Abraham was their father based on their blood relation with him. This was their argument that they were the children of Abraham. Christ states the exact opposite. It was not blood relation that made them children of God but their faith in Him alone. Since the Jews around Him rejected Him Christ stated that their Father was not Abraham and that their father was the devil.
Christ's words stated clearly it was faith in Him, not blood lineage or race that made a child of God. Most of Israel rejected Him and therefore were not children of God.

Romans 9

2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Paul is making a destinction here. Not all Israel was Israel. He goes further by stating that:

Romans 9

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.


Natural Israel even though as numerous as the sand by the sea, only a small portion of natural "blood relation" Israel would be saved. The majority of natural Israel would not be. But Abraham was to have

Hebrews 11

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.


If this is only the last generation of Israel in the future then they could never number like the stars in the sky or the sand on the seashore. Also, most believe that the remnant has not occurred yet. Well what about the Jews who did receive the Gospel in the 1st Century?

The disciples who received the Gospel and the thousands upon thousands who received the Gospel through Peter and others were ALL Jews. The remnant of Israel DID receive the Gospel. To state the remnant has not happened yet is to totally ignore the believing Jews of the 1st century.

Israel was not the Israel of blood lineage as stated by Jesus but those that received the Gospel by faith in Christ. They were Israel. The Gospel went to them first and then through Paul, believing gentiles were grafted in along with the believing Jews making the ONE children of God. There are not two. Scripture clearly states that in Christ:

Galations 3

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


In Christ there is no distinction. It is not by race or blood lineage that makes Israel. God only sees

1) Those in Christ.
2) Those not in Christ.

Are their Jews today coming into the kingdom through Christ? Of course! Are their gentiles today coming into the Kingdom through Christ? Of course! All share in the inheritance of Abraham who as Romans clearly states:

Romans 4

20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


It was faith that was credited to Abraham just as all those who have faith in Christ become the Children of God or Israel.

There is no special favoritism for ethnic Israel today only because if there was it would be based upon their blood lineage which is against Christ's own words that only faith can save them. If any Jew today received the Gospel they become part of the ONE Children of God already made up of believing Jews and Gentiles for the past 2000 years in which there is no distinction but their faith.

If Israel indeed was only referring to the last generation in the end of days then 2000+ years of Israel has perished. The last generation of Israel is the only Israel spoken of and they cannot number like the stars in the sky or the sands on the seashore.

But if Israel is not blood Israel today but made up of the believing Jews and Gentiles of the 1st Century and every Century since then (so far 21 Centuries) then that indeed does number like the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore. Simple logic.

The original comment was that the Church could not have replaced Israel. Well, it didn't replace Israel. It was Israel. Israel began FIRST with guess who????????

Believing Jews such as Peter, John, James etc........ALL JEWS!

Then believing Gentiles were grafted in. THERE CANNOT BE A REPLACEMENT if Israel began with the believing Jews of the 1st Century. The Church never replaced anyone. It was always meant to be part of the one Children of God made up of all those of faith.

We cannot ignore the Jews of the 1st Century, the remnant. They were the first fruits of the Church. The original poster is correct the Church didn't replace Israel but to ignore the fact that the Church began with believing Jews is to ignore all the Jews who received Christ in the 1st Century. There is not the Church and Israel, there is only those of faith, the Church which is Israel.

All nations since the first century have the opportunity to become the one Children of God through Christ. Not just ethnic Israel today, but India, Syria, Russia, China etc. Israel has been growing everyday for the past 2000 years and has not ended. God truly has given Children to Abraham as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore.

I suggest you go back and study all the material already provided in the original post. Most of what you have posted has already been addressed and I will not go into it again here.

The church is not Israel. They are two separate peoples. Once the church is raptured and taken up into Heaven, Then God will turn His attention back to Israel. The judgments of the Tribulation will be the means by which the Jews realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they rejected. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ returns to the earth with the Church-His bride, and the Jews who have survived to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom. This is when Israel is fully restored to the land that was promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant.

There are four unconditional covenants which God made specifically with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are 1) The Abrahamic covenant 2) The Palestinian covenant 3) The Davidic covenant, and 4) The New covenant to Israel.

What is the Abrahamic Covenant?

What is the Palestinian Covenant?

What is the Davidic covenant?

Israel and New Covenant

These covenants are to the nation of Israel and will have their fulfillment at the Second Advent of Christ.

Those who will, study the material in the links in the original post.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:13 AM
 
701 posts, read 738,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
THE CHURCH BEGAN WITH BELIEVING JEWS FIRST. Believing Gentiles were then added to the Church.

All nations since the first century have the opportunity to become the one Children of God through Christ. Not just ethnic Israel today, but India, Syria, Russia, China etc. Israel has been growing everyday for the past 2000 years and has not ended. God truly has given Children to Abraham as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sands on the seashore.
Forgive me, but I truncated your post for brevity's sake, but it was a purely epic post. I could not have said it better myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I suggest you go back and study all the material already provided in the original post. Most of what you have posted has already been addressed and I will not go into it again here.

The church is not Israel. They are two separate peoples. Once the church is raptured and taken up into Heaven, Then God will turn His attention back to Israel. The judgments of the Tribulation will be the means by which the Jews realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they rejected. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ returns to the earth with the Church-His bride, and the Jews who have survived to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom. This is when Israel is fully restored to the land that was promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant.

There are four unconditional covenants which God made specifically with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are 1) The Abrahamic covenant 2) The Palestinian covenant 3) The Davidic covenant, and 4) The New covenant to Israel.

What is the Abrahamic Covenant?

What is the Palestinian Covenant?

What is the Davidic covenant?

Israel and New Covenant

These covenants are to the nation of Israel and will have their fulfillment at the Second Advent of Christ.

Those who will, study the material in the links in the original post.
Israel has had 2000 years of hindsight to make a decision regarding Christ. What is it, about this mythical 7 year period of time, is going to change anything? What about all the Jews who rejected Christ between the first century AD to those that die prior to this alleged 7 year period? How are they handled? Why is it only those alive at the time of this "secret" rapture?

Mike the idea about the "secret" rapture, the 7 year time of tribulation that will involve the emergence of the antichrist, and Israel's role in these events, are all intertwined through the erroneous ideas set in motion by the Counter-Reformation which got underway at the Council of Trent.

What is your interpretation of the following text, and where it fits in with regards to last day events?

Quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Version)

(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:52 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
27,742 posts, read 20,448,568 times
Reputation: 12350
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Forgive me, but I truncated your post for brevity's sake, but it was a purely epic post. I could not have said it better myself.



Israel has had 2000 years of hindsight to make a decision regarding Christ. What is it, about this mythical 7 year period of time, is going to change anything?
There is nothing mythical about the Tribulation. This time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) is the last remaining seven years which belongs to the dispensation of Israel. The first half of this period is actually peaceful. It is the last 3 1/2 years when the judgments described in the book of Revelation occur. Israel is currently partially regathered in the land in a state of unbelief in preparation for the Tribulation which will occur after the church is raptured. It is the nature and intensity of these judgments that will awaken Israel to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah that they rejected. And as a result, Jesus will return and rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist. The 'Kingdom age'- the Millennium-the age of Christ will begin and all the Jews will be regathered to the land never again to be uprooted. (Matt. 23:38-39; Zech chapter 14)


The Time of Jacob's Trouble (http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/Definitions/Def_JacobsTrouble.htm - broken link)

What is the time of Jacob’s trouble?

Quote:
What about all the Jews who rejected Christ between the first century AD to those that die prior to this alleged 7 year period? How are they handled? Why is it only those alive at the time of this "secret" rapture?
All who die without Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Some Jews during the church-age do accept Christ and become a part of the church-the body of Christ. They are beneficiaries of the things which belong to the church and not beneficiaries of the things which belong to the age of Israel. They will not partake of the promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but are members of the royal family of God and partake of those things which belong to the church-age believer such as the baptism of the Holy Spirit which places the church-age believer into union with Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and many other things which are listed in the following link. Some of the things mentioned belong to believers of all dispensations and others only to the church-age believer.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


During this present time there is a partial veil over Israel. (Rom. 11:25-27)


Romans 11 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Quote:
Mike the idea about the "secret" rapture, the 7 year time of tribulation that will involve the emergence of the antichrist, and Israel's role in these events, are all intertwined through the erroneous ideas set in motion by the Counter-Reformation which got underway at the Council of Trent.

What is your interpretation of the following text, and where it fits in with regards to last day events?
The first mention of the rapture in the New Testament is by Jesus Christ Himself in John 14:1-3 ''Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God believe also in Me. 2) ''In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go and prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

In Revelation 19:7-8, the raptured or resurrected church is seen in Heaven immediately after the judgment seat of Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12) and immediately preceding her return to the earth with Christ at the Second Advent at which time He rescues Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist.

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride (the raptured church) has made herself ready. 8) And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (This is a reference to the judgment seat of Christ, and the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints which is the 'gold, silver, and precious stones' which is rewardable at the Bema seat.)

In Revelation 19:11-20, Christ returns to the earth with His bride, the Church.

The following link pertains to the judgment seat of Christ for believers...

www.gbible.org/_files/pdf/091398.pdf


These links pertain to the rapture of the church...

The Rapture of the Church

The Rapture - 66/40 - K-House

I suggest that all who are reading this refer back to post #1 and read the articles that I linked to.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:02 PM
 
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Mike555, nowhere in scripture does it ever say that the rapture is a quiet secretive event. I know that Christ is coming to take us of this earth, but when He does it will be loud and visible to everyone living on earth both Righteous and unrighteous. Why did you completely ignore my question to you at the end of post #6? As much as you post regarding links that you want others to read, are you willing to follow a link I send you and read it through?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:23 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Mike555, nowhere in scripture does it ever say that the rapture is a quiet secretive event. I know that Christ is coming to take us of this earth, but when He does it will be loud and visible to everyone living on earth both Righteous and unrighteous.
It is those whose oppose the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture who make an issue out of the rapture being a 'quiet secretive event.' The rapture is not the Second Advent.

Christ returns for the church at the rapture as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thess. 1:10 and 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:14;Titus 2:13; Rev. 22:20.

In a separate event, Christ returns to the earth to fulfill the prophecies with regard to Israel's national regathering as recorded in 2 Sam. 7:8-17; Zech. 12:8; Luke 1:31-33; 1 Cor. 15:24. The actual return is recorded in Revelation 19:11-16.

As already shown, the raptured church is in Heaven in Revelation 19:7-8 prior to Christ's return to the earth.


Quote:
Why did you completely ignore my question to you at the end of post #6?
Your question regarding 2 Thess. 2:3-4 is covered in detail in the link 'The Rapture of the Church' starting about paragraph 15 or 16.

Before the antichrist is revealed, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit must be lifted. When the church is raptured, although the Holy Spirit will not be taken away, His restraining influence will be taken out of the way.


Quote:
As much as you post regarding links that you want others to read, are you willing to follow a link I send you and read it through?
The links that I post are for the edification of those who will go into them and study them. Whether you personally choose to view them or not is your own affair. I'm not about to waste my time going to some link that you think refutes the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture. I already know what the post-tribbers and mid-tribbers think. I do recommend however that you go into my links. But as I say, that is your affair.

Last edited by Michael Way; 04-29-2010 at 12:31 AM..
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:00 AM
 
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Hi Mike,

Quote:
I suggest you go back and study all the material already provided in the original post. Most of what you have posted has already been addressed and I will not go into it again here.
I am already familiar with Dispensationalism and other Futurist interpretations. I believed them for almost 20 years.

Quote:
The church is not Israel. They are two separate peoples. Once the church is raptured and taken up into Heaven, Then God will turn His attention back to Israel.
The problem I have with this is that there are two different plans for salvation which I don't see any scripture supporting. There is only one way through Christ(which I know you agree) but this is by no means different in the future then it was 2000 years ago till now. Ethnic Israel has the way into the Kingdom this very second. The very fact that Jews each day are accepting Christ proves that God's attention is on every nation every generation and every day. He does not forget any of His chosen. Jews along with other unbelievers have the Gospel. They just choose not to receive it.

Quote:
The judgments of the Tribulation will be the means by which the Jews realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they rejected. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ returns to the earth with the Church-His bride, and the Jews who have survived to the end of the Tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom. This is when Israel is fully restored to the land that was promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant.
Ethnic Israel was restored to their land in the time of Joshua. Where in scripture do you see that the Old Covenant was unconditional? It was conditional based on their obedience to God. If they weren't He would judge them

Quote:
There are four unconditional covenants which God made specifically with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are 1) The Abrahamic covenant 2) The Palestinian covenant 3) The Davidic covenant, and 4) The New covenant to Israel.
There is only the New Covenant today which confirmed the Old Covenant. Where in scripture to you see a new one that is not in effect today?

Quote:
These covenants are to the nation of Israel and will have their fulfillment at the Second Advent of Christ.

Those who will, study the material in the links in the original post.
But their is no Old Covenant anymore to the Jews or anyone else. It was confirmed in Christ. The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to reveal the New Covenant in Christ. Christ was the entire picture that the Old Covenant was pointing to.

If you rejected New Covenant(Christ) you also rejected the Old Covenant whose entire reason for being was to reveal our Savior and Lord. Ethnic Israel of the 1st century rejected Christ and therefore rejected the Old Covenant, not just the new. Ethnic Israel today is no different then any other heathan nation that had rejected Christ. The majority of ethnic Israel for the past 2000 years has fallen. They all had the opportunity along with every other nation to receive the Gospel.

Jews today can be saved. Israel is not reserved for an endtime generation but was only those believing Jews and Gentiles who received Christ not just in a 3.5 year period but through every generation for the past 2000 years.

I don;t see any scripture to support that Israel is a Christ rejecting people but all scripture points to a faith believing people made up of all regardless of race or sex but only on one issue. Faith in Christ in which we are already taking part in.
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