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Hahaha my title oddly enough reminds me of a FANTASTIC DVD out...(check it out at www.ad70.tv) hmmm anyway,
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
CantWait2Leave - tell me why is it that you believe God is unable or unwilling to save some sinners while He saves other ones?
Unable? Really? I need to check the forum I am in...how could God be unable to do anything??
Say you have 10 murderers standing before you in a line. All 10 are guilty and all are sentenced to death. Before the execution 5 are pardoned. 5 die. Now...ALL 10 were guilty, and deserved to die.
My question to you is do you see the 5 who died being UNFAIRLY put to death? Or do you see the that justice was served and that 5 were given the gift of life?
I can only assume that this is a serious question you are asking me even though you are being sarcastic with your tone...
So, if you are asking me how does God chose His elect? I have no idea. Why would the process matter to me anyway when there is not one thing I could do to be saved and not one thing I could do to lose my assurance of salvation.
Hi Wanda,
How do you know you are one of the elect? How do you know God chose and loves you and not other people? How do you know you are not deceived?
How do you know you are one of the elect? How do you know God chose and loves you and not other people? How do you know you are not deceived?
Hey Legoman! I believe with all my heart that I am one of the elect and that my sins have been forgiven and washed clean. I believe that I am called to serve others and minister to the hurting and share the Gospel with any who will listen.
I believe this right now in this temporary physical body but I will KNOW once I shed this flesh and then remain with God forever (or not).
So, might I NOT be of the flock? Might I end up in eternal torment...Well, if that is God's plan for me then of course!
However, will I live my life wondering and doubting and looking for signs of my election - no. Not to say that I don't have periods or seasons where my faith is strained or even contracts a bit BUT my hope remains in the fact that Christ came back and fulfilled redemption is complete.
Hahaha my title oddly enough reminds me of a FANTASTIC DVD out...(check it out at www.ad70.tv) hmmm anyway,
Unable? Really? I need to check the forum I am in...how could God be unable to do anything??
Say you have 10 murderers standing before you in a line. All 10 are guilty and all are sentenced to death. Before the execution 5 are pardoned. 5 die. Now...ALL 10 were guilty, and deserved to die.
My question to you is do you see the 5 who died being UNFAIRLY put to death? Or do you see the that justice was served and that 5 were given the gift of life?
A death sentence is not analogous to eternal torment. The purpose of a death sentence is to remove the transgressor so that they cannot do further harm. That's completely different from the idea of God torturing people for eternity which would serve no purpose at all unless one believes God likes to torture people and I don't see that in the Bible. What I do see is God bringing punishment but always with a corrective purpose in mind. See UR isn't about saying God has no justice, etc. It's about doing what the Bible itself does and stressing God's long suffering and mercy and purposes that always have a righteous goal in mind. He's our father. His aim is to correct us in the end, not to spend eternity wallowing in vindictiveness. To suggest otherwise I think does a disservice to God. See us URers don't generally claim God never gets angry or punishes people. What we generally object to isn't the punishment. It's the eternal part, the idea that God's wrath has an everlasting victory over his mercy. See I view God like it says in Psalm 107:10-16
"10 Those who sat in darkness and in the shadow of death,
Bound in affliction and irons—
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God,
And despised the counsel of the Most High,
12 Therefore He brought down their heart with labor;
They fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death,
And broke their chains in pieces.
15 Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness,
And for His wonderful works to the children of men!
16 For He has broken the gates of bronze,
And cut the bars of iron in two."
They rebelled. God punished. They repented. God granted mercy. That's the natural order of things I see in the scripture.
Hey Legoman! I believe with all my heart that I am one of the elect and that my sins have been forgiven and washed clean. I believe that I am called to serve others and minister to the hurting and share the Gospel with any who will listen.
I believe this right now in this temporary physical body but I will KNOW once I shed this flesh and then remain with God forever (or not).
So, might I NOT be of the flock? Might I end up in eternal torment...Well, if that is God's plan for me then of course!
However, will I live my life wondering and doubting and looking for signs of my election - no. Not to say that I don't have periods or seasons where my faith is strained or even contracts a bit BUT my hope remains in the fact that Christ came back and fulfilled redemption is complete.
Do you believe that you are one of His children?
Well it depends what you mean by "His children" I suppose, but yes I believe I am one of God's children.
This is the hope that we should have:
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
However under your belief system I don't understand how anyone can have assurance, given:
1. God has chosen some to be left in eternal torment, and no one can do anything about it
2. Many are deceived
3. You don't know if you are deceived and have been chosen to be left in eternal torment
Under that system there is no assurance for anyone.
But I don't think God will leave you in eternal torment Wanda...
i would like to add to the OP and to what alot of people are saying about punishment
heres a little to what i beleive-first of all we all(every living entity)originates from the eternal spiritual dimension-everything there including our own spirits and essence(soul) is made of pure spiritual energy called transcendental bliss(pure ecstatic love)-now somehow or other we missused our free will and fell down to the material platform-which is multiple universes that are temporary in existence-although our souls are eternal spiritual sparks that is made up of the same energy as God-our bodys and time on these planets are temporary
their is a little but just law that exists in the material universe-KARMA-even Jesus spoke of this-"what you reap ,so shall you sow"...this is where also the "free will thingy"also comes into play-we are all effectrd bye our actions and due to our desires on the material platform-then we will suffer or enjoy accordingly.
so God has already placed and controls this Karma-in existence....so there is a universal law and it is just-what you reap so shall you sow....now if you ask me then that in itself wipes out the whole eternal hell concept...what man's crime could deserve an eternal punishment of the extreme=-maybe 1000 lifetimes in hell or some miserable condition to teach that soul that -hey you cant be doin this $hit-but eternal torture----christians think about what you are saying God is
Well it depends what you mean by "His children" I suppose, but yes I believe I am one of God's children.
This is the hope that we should have:
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
However under your belief system I don't understand how anyone can have assurance, given:
1. God has chosen some to be left in eternal torment, and no one can do anything about it
2. Many are deceived
3. You don't know if you are deceived and have been chosen to be left in eternal torment
Under that system there is no assurance for anyone.
But I don't think God will leave you in eternal torment Wanda...
exactly
if you could take someone out of that punishment-you would-even your worst enemy,never mind your children,if ya know what i mean.
so would God being that all loving Supreme Personality leave someone there,and dont forget He has the power to do whatever He likes(thank God)
now the thing is -there is alot of evil in the universe due to our ignorance of our spiritual identity's-so just like you would punish your child for doing something wrong in order for them to learn-so God has to do JUST-not satanism-to TEACH His children......simples
Hahaha my title oddly enough reminds me of a FANTASTIC DVD out...(check it out at www.ad70.tv) hmmm anyway,
Unable? Really? I need to check the forum I am in...how could God be unable to do anything??
Say you have 10 murderers standing before you in a line. All 10 are guilty and all are sentenced to death. Before the execution 5 are pardoned. 5 die. Now...ALL 10 were guilty, and deserved to die.
My question to you is do you see the 5 who died being UNFAIRLY put to death? Or do you see the that justice was served and that 5 were given the gift of life?
Mine was a question. I didn't say God was unable to save anyone. I believe God will save Everyone. As to your analogy. You said if I have 10 murderers standing before me. I am not God. I cannot save someone from death. God obviously can and will for all. See here is a question for you.
Do you believe will save everyone? (you already acknowledge that God is able to).
Wow, I just had to put this post in this thread because it definitely applies to it. This was posted by Joeallcomm in another thread. If this doesn't prove that we DO NOT have freewill, I don't know what would convince someone.
Mike………..all that you have written has only proven that “man” has a “will”. No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will. You must realize how easy it is for God to manipulate or not to manipulate ANY man, at ANY time, solely because they are ALL SINNERS.
Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.
Does man have a free will?
Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to willand to do of his good pleasure.
And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…
Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".
It is God who moves one to do this or that….
2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.
God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.
Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ……….. Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD that showeth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can) Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….
Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants
Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
We read many times that God, Himself, hardened Pharaoh’s heart…
Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?
Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their[the Canaanites']hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.
God predestines ALL to His own will….
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.
Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
But man thinks he understands his own way. Look at what else God does....
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
If we are created by the hands of God, then he controls everything we do.....
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……
John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?
But where did this power really come from?
Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).
Can we really do good, of our own selves?
Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.
The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):
This is the King of Assyria talking….
Isa 10:13-14 ......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)
What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want:
This is God speaking....
Isa 10:10-12 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed Hiswhole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .
Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:
Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood
This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?
Isaiah 10:5-8 “O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?
Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...
Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”
What happens to a prophet who is deceived?
Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Well thats understandable, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..
Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)
Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares YOU to. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily, thine own 'will') HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.
Great Post Ilene. I don't see how someone can defend the "free will" concept when it is so refutable.
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Will know soon enough!
But I don't think God will leave you in eternal torment Wanda...
