Jesus did not go to Heaven while dead (doctrine, believing, scriptures)

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

John was quoting Jesus, right?

No. John was making his own statement concerning Jesus.

Since I believe heaven was in Jesus his body being dead or alive then would have no bearing on his. Of course, I don't adhere to a concept of 3 dimensional comings and goings from a physical place called 'heaven' then we may be at an impasse.

However you believe it, while Jesus was dead He did not ascend into heaven and neither did anyone else.

To me saying "Gos sent His Son into the world" is the same as saying "God sent heaven into the world". "Ascending to the Father" (to me) refers to a state of being.

That does not comport with the actual testimony of the Scriptures and actually robs the gospel of its power.

Jesus was dead. The only way he could be made alive is if God rose Him from the dead. The only way He could go back to the Father was to be resurrected from the dead.
When He ascended to the Father it was not in some mystical way. It was in a very visible, tangible way in front of over 500 witnesses.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Here is proof positive that Jesus did not go to heaven while He was dead:

"Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17

Did you see that? AFTER Jesus arose from the grave He told Mary He has not ascended to His Father. He has not gone to heaven yet. He did not go to heaven while he was dead.

No, He didn't go to Heaven, but He did go to Paradise; at least He told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him there. This implies that Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Matt 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I've always thought these people were seen via dreams/visions by their family members. I wonder if before the time of Jesus' ressurrection, when people died, they did "sleep" in the grave and now that Jesus has been resurrected, NOW that has changed. We no longer "sleep" in the grave, but are resurrected upon death. I have personally witnessed the above verse in my own life with family who have passed away or those in the process of passing away. I think there are two different ways of seeing the resurrection and frankly, both ways are scriptural. It just depends on how you are viewing it. hmmm. Well, I suppose it's not really all that important. Just one of those things we'll find out soon enough. This is definitely not a "debate" topic for me. I have my own things that I hold precious, concernig this and... that's good enough for me.

peace,
sparrow

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

No, He didn't go to Heaven, but He did go to Paradise; at least He told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him there. This implies that Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.

No He did not go to paradise and He did not tell the thief he would be in paradise when he died. When they died they were dead. Do you know what dead means? It means the absence of life in any form.

I sure wish you guys could get your facts straight. First you say when you die you have conscious existence in hell, some say in Hades and now you say Paradise. And some of you say you go straight to heaven. And the prodigal son went to the pig farm.

It is impossible for Jesus to have gone to paradise or the thief to have gone there when they died. The only way Jesus and the thief could have a living existence is to be resurrected from the dead.

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen/Hades/Sheol/Grave where you are going."

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

No He did not go to paradise and He did not tell the thief he would be in paradise when he died. When they died they were dead.

Okay, well in my Bible He did.

Do you know what dead means? It means the absence of life in any form.

Yeah, I know what "dead" means. It means the life-giving spirit has left the mortal body. The body is then "dead." The spirit is not.

I sure wish you guys could get your facts straight. First you say when you die you have conscious existence in hell, some say in Hades and now you say Paradise. And some of you say you go straight to heaven. And the prodigal son went to the pig farm.

Calm down. It's not worth getting all worked up over. We simply have a difference of opinion.

It is impossible for Jesus to have gone to paradise or the thief to have gone there when they died. The only way Jesus and the thief could have a living existence is to be resurrected from the dead.

In your opinion. In my opinion, the spirit is a cognizant entity that never dies. Death is something that happens to a physical body when the spirit that once resided in it leaves. I suppose you don't believe that Jesus visited the spirits in prison in the interim between His death and His resurrection, either, but that doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Maybe it means I'm right and you're wrong.

[sciotamicks]

Eusebius reads a different Bible than the other 1.5 billion Christians.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Eusebius reads a different Bible than the other 1.5 billion Christians.

And the rest of the 1.5 billion Christians read the same Bible?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

No. John was making his own statement concerning Jesus.



However you believe it, while Jesus was dead He did not ascend into heaven and neither did anyone else.



That does not comport with the actual testimony of the Scriptures and actually robs the gospel of its power.

Jesus was dead. The only way he could be made alive is if God rose Him from the dead. The only way He could go back to the Father was to be resurrected from the dead.
When He ascended to the Father it was not in some mystical way. It was in a very visible, tangible way in front of over 500 witnesses.

You mean up to the sky? Like an astronaut? That will get you high but not to heaven!

Anyway - you have a great point. I just like to get people to think about words. Jesus took on a high authority after the death/burial resurrection was accomplished. He ascended on high. That's why it says "right hand of power"

[Romulus0]

Hi Eusebius,

Let me comment on your posts:

#1

Well, seeing as how Jesus told Mary AFTER He was resurrected that He had not ascended into heaven and those people came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection, we can rule out the idea that they went to heaven before Him.

Believe it or not I agree with you. Many rose out of their graves as a result of Christ's Resurrection but this in my opinion was only a sign. Jesus did not ascend to heaven yet and even when He did at the ascension the Atonement for sin was not complete yet so no souls could have gone with him. Why?

Hebrews 9

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.


When we study Hebrews we understand that for the Atonement to be complete(and therefore the dead to enter heaven) three things must be accomplished. Remember how Hebrews states that Christ is a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek? If you do, you can see that in Hebrews Christ is fulfilling the Old Covenant role of the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, once and for all.

In the Old Covenant "Day of Atonement"(DOA) the High Priest had to:

1)SACRIFICE

Make the sacrifice for himself and then the people.

2)ATONEMENT

Make the Atonement itself in the Holy of Holies(blood on the mercy seat)

3)APPEARANCE

Appear before the people alive(if it was done wrong he would be killed by
God in the Holy of Holies and not appear) and he would state it is done.

This was done on the "DOA" in the Tabernacle and then in the temple in Jerusalem. Christ is now fulfilling this role in the New Covenant, once and for all. If the High Priest did not appear before the people alive(proving that God accepted the Atonement), then the Atonement was not complete.

Christ in Hebrews is doing the exact same thing:

1) SACRIFICE

Jesus was perfect so no sacrifice was needed for Himself. Next Jesus did not provide
a sacrifice for us in a goat and/or lamb, He became the sacrifice itself on the Cross.

2) ATONEMENT

Hebrews 9

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of
the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's
presence.

This is where Hebrews states that the atonement was not done on earth
but had to be made in heaven itself(the perfect sanctuary.) Remember
That according to Hebrews the "appearance of Christ" had not occurred
yet.

3) APPEARANCE

Hebrews 9

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Now according to the Day of Atonement, Israel did not rejoice until the High Priest appeared alive to the people. This was proving that the Atonement was accepted by God. The appearance of Christ "a second time" "unto Salvation" was the completion of the Atonement. If this has not occurred Salvation has not yet come.


What I am stating with this, is that Jesus had to complete

1) SACRIFICE
2) ATONEMENT
3) APPEARANCE

In order for anyone to enter heaven. Christ's own words that He had not ascended into heaven yet is stating according to Hebrews that the Atonement in heaven was not made yet and more importantly the Appearance was not complete yet as well.

In order for the dead Saints at the Resurrection of Christ or the dead saints waiting in Hades/Sheol could not have ascended with Christ into heaven yet since the Atonement and Appearance were not complete yet.

How could Christ bring the dead with Him to heaven when the Atonement was not fulfilled yet? He couldn't.

#2. Since John wrote his epistle quite a long time after Jesus ascended to heaven and he wrote that Jesus is the only one who ascended into heaven, we can rest assured that those who came out of their graves did not ascend into heaven.

I agree.

#

3. Therefore we must conclude that those who came out of their graves were not given immortality and later died and were put back in their graves.

Well I agree but I would change the idea that they die "again". They were already dead. Something dead cannot die again. They simply went back to the grave or Hades/Sheol again.

My argument is that since according to Hebrews that the "Second Appearing" of Christ was to be "Salvation" to those waiting for Him and this was the completion of the Atonement for sin, once and for all and the reconciliation of man to God, then the dead that rose from their graves at Christ's Resurrection could not have ascended with Christ.

I also ask that all understand the scripture about the "second appearing" of Christ in Hebrews. This fits in perfectly with what the High Priest on the Day of Atonement did every year until Christ did it once and for all.

See Hebrews again:

Hebrews 9

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;
and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring
salvation to those who are waiting for him.

If this is a future event. According to the plain reading of scripture, Salvation has not come! Just as the High Priest on the Day of Atonement had to appear alive to show that the Old Covenant Atonement was accepted by God, so must Christ appear a "second time" to complete the Atonement, once and for all for sin to show it has been received by God in heaven.

Where did Christ go?

Well If Jesus did not go to heaven yet, He must have gone somewhere? He went where every other person who dies went which was to Hades/Sheol, which was the waiting place until Christ completed the Atonement which included His "Second Appearing". This fits in perfectly with what scripture states:

1 Thessalonians 4

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Who are the dead in Christ? Well all those who died before Christ completed the Atonement. This included those who rose on the day He was Resurrected. This also includes Abraham, Moses and all the Old Testament Saints. The fact that I believe the "Second Appearing" and that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 was completed in 70 A.D. and therefore we DO have Salvation now is another discussion.

God Bless!

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

No. John was making his own statement concerning Jesus.

Just a side note: In this passage JESUS IS credited with the statement. But if your not an inerrancy of the bible person (I am not) - no big deal.