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View Poll Results: Which would you have
Cummins 5.9 12v 6 50.00%
Cummins 5.9 24v 3 25.00%
Cummins 6.7 3 25.00%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 07-10-2017, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,449 posts, read 2,880,389 times
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The Cummins 5.9 had two valves the early 12 valves until they were replaced by the 24 valve midway through 1998 for emission requirements. The 6.7s are pretty quiet and that is the engine in my grandpa's 2010 Ram 3500 truck. Personally I'd rather have the 5.9 24 valve because in the engines in the 1998-2001 Dodge Ram 2500/3500 trucks you get very good gas mileage. Plus, they sound like diesels like the Powerstroke 7.3s and 6.0s as well as the Detroit 6.5 diesel. The 5.9s aren't the most powerful but the 5.9s 24v is reliable.

Last edited by Jonathan Ashbeck; 07-10-2017 at 03:07 PM..
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Old 07-13-2017, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Huntsville
5,768 posts, read 5,478,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
The Cummins 5.9 had two valves the early 12 valves until they were replaced by the 24 valve midway through 1998 for emission requirements. The 6.7s are pretty quiet and that is the engine in my grandpa's 2010 Ram 3500 truck. Personally I'd rather have the 5.9 24 valve because in the engines in the 1998-2001 Dodge Ram 2500/3500 trucks you get very good gas mileage. Plus, they sound like diesels like the Powerstroke 7.3s and 6.0s as well as the Detroit 6.5 diesel. The 5.9s aren't the most powerful but the 5.9s 24v is reliable.
Eh.... it's a little more complicated than that really...


None of the inline 6'ers sound like a V-8 diesel. If you are referring to the clackety sound you are used to hearing from the 5.9L, a 7.3, or a Detroit you are getting that from old technology. Specifically direct injection (mechanical) or HEUI. All new trucks use a common rail system with a computer to control injection. Couple that with variable geometry turbos, and then stifle the sound with emissions equipment and you don't hear much of anything.


The reason the 6.7 doesn't sound like a 5.9L is due to a couple of reasons.


1. 5.9L's do not have pre or post injection. The 6.7L's do.
2. 5.9L's do not have VGT's.


What you got from a non-VGT truck is boost lag, higher exhaust manifold pressures, and more heat. The trade-off is a loss of some sound. Even the new Powerstroke's use VGTs. That's why they sound like a turbine plane engine when they start up.


The benefits for this newer technology is apparent below:


12 valve 5.9L: 215 HP/440 lb.ft torque
24 valve 5.9L: 325 HP/610 lb.ft torque
24 valve 6.7L: 370HP/800 lb.ft torque


My friend's 2006 5.9L 24 valve was hand calculated at 17.6 mpg. Initially my 2012 6.7L was eeking out about 14mpg. I have since deleted it (no emissions laws in my state) and allowed it to breathe. As of this morning I am at 410 HP/900 lb.ft torque at 18.7 mpg on the tow tune (60 HP). I can move up to the street tune to make 75 HP or jump to the performance tune and pull in an additional 120 HP over stock and pick up another 1-2 mpg. However, it causes increased EGT's which is dangerous for the engine so tow tune it is.


The bonus to all of this? The 6.7's are just as reliable as the old 5.9Ls, and much more reliable than the older Powerstroke and Duramax engines. The 6.7 is one of those "have your cake and eat it too" situations.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:12 AM
 
9 posts, read 15,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
Eh.... it's a little more complicated than that really...


None of the inline 6'ers sound like a V-8 diesel. If you are referring to the clackety sound you are used to hearing from the 5.9L, a 7.3, or a Detroit you are getting that from old technology. Specifically direct injection (mechanical) or HEUI. All new trucks use a common rail system with a computer to control injection. Couple that with variable geometry turbos, and then stifle the sound with emissions equipment and you don't hear much of anything.


The reason the 6.7 doesn't sound like a 5.9L is due to a couple of reasons.


1. 5.9L's do not have pre or post injection. The 6.7L's do.
2. 5.9L's do not have VGT's.


What you got from a non-VGT truck is boost lag, higher exhaust manifold pressures, and more heat. The trade-off is a loss of some sound. Even the new Powerstroke's use VGTs. That's why they sound like a turbine plane engine when they start up.


The benefits for this newer technology is apparent below:


12 valve 5.9L: 215 HP/440 lb.ft torque
24 valve 5.9L: 325 HP/610 lb.ft torque
24 valve 6.7L: 370HP/800 lb.ft torque


My friend's 2006 5.9L 24 valve was hand calculated at 17.6 mpg. Initially my 2012 6.7L was eeking out about 14mpg. I have since deleted it (no emissions laws in my state) and allowed it to breathe. As of this morning I am at 410 HP/900 lb.ft torque at 18.7 mpg on the tow tune (60 HP). I can move up to the street tune to make 75 HP or jump to the performance tune and pull in an additional 120 HP over stock and pick up another 1-2 mpg. However, it causes increased EGT's which is dangerous for the engine so tow tune it is.


The bonus to all of this? The 6.7's are just as reliable as the old 5.9Ls, and much more reliable than the older Powerstroke and Duramax engines. The 6.7 is one of those "have your cake and eat it too" situations.
Regardless of your state laws it's still illegal to remove emissions control equipment per federal law. It will continue to be so unless or until such time as the EPA is reined in and confined to their actual mandated authority. Even doing something that would decrease harmful emissions is illegal in some cases such as installing a water methanol injection system which has been proven to improve fuel mileage, emissions, reliability and drivability. It's really stupid to not allow that sort of change. So you have 2 choices, don't do it or don't get caught. If you take emissions control equipment off, store it safely away so if they change the law to require inspections you can put it back on. This would also apply to selling the vehicle. Personally I dislike many of the emissions requirements in the extreme, since they reduce the efficiency of the engine they're on. Water Methanol injection seems to do the same thing for emissions that EGR and DEF does but instead of making your engine less efficient, and causing clogging in your intake, especially in diesels, it increases the power, increases the reliability and reduces the emissions. The EPA should be abolished.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,449 posts, read 2,880,389 times
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V8 or not but the 5.9s still sound like diesels IMO.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,449 posts, read 2,880,389 times
Reputation: 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
Eh.... it's a little more complicated than that really...


None of the inline 6'ers sound like a V-8 diesel. If you are referring to the clackety sound you are used to hearing from the 5.9L, a 7.3, or a Detroit you are getting that from old technology. Specifically direct injection (mechanical) or HEUI. All new trucks use a common rail system with a computer to control injection. Couple that with variable geometry turbos, and then stifle the sound with emissions equipment and you don't hear much of anything.


The reason the 6.7 doesn't sound like a 5.9L is due to a couple of reasons.


1. 5.9L's do not have pre or post injection. The 6.7L's do.
2. 5.9L's do not have VGT's.


What you got from a non-VGT truck is boost lag, higher exhaust manifold pressures, and more heat. The trade-off is a loss of some sound. Even the new Powerstroke's use VGTs. That's why they sound like a turbine plane engine when they start up.


The benefits for this newer technology is apparent below:


12 valve 5.9L: 215 HP/440 lb.ft torque
24 valve 5.9L: 325 HP/610 lb.ft torque
24 valve 6.7L: 370HP/800 lb.ft torque


My friend's 2006 5.9L 24 valve was hand calculated at 17.6 mpg. Initially my 2012 6.7L was eeking out about 14mpg. I have since deleted it (no emissions laws in my state) and allowed it to breathe. As of this morning I am at 410 HP/900 lb.ft torque at 18.7 mpg on the tow tune (60 HP). I can move up to the street tune to make 75 HP or jump to the performance tune and pull in an additional 120 HP over stock and pick up another 1-2 mpg. However, it causes increased EGT's which is dangerous for the engine so tow tune it is.


The bonus to all of this? The 6.7's are just as reliable as the old 5.9Ls, and much more reliable than the older Powerstroke and Duramax engines. The 6.7 is one of those "have your cake and eat it too" situations.
That is why I say the 5.9s, the Powerstroke 7.3s and 6.0s, and Detroit 6.2s/6.5s sound like diesels because of the clackety sounds and you're right that the inlien 6'ers don't sound like V8 engines. As a matter of fact, the Cummins are NOT V8 engines unlike the Duramax and Powerstroke engines. The reason why Cummins switched from the 12 valve to the 24 valve in mid-1998 is because of emission requirements which was why Navistar went from manufacturing the Powerstroke 7.3 (Navistar T444E) engines to the 6.0s and then the 6.4s until Ford decided to make the Powerstrokes exclusively inhouse. Plus, another difference between the Powerstrokes and Duramaxes is that the Cummins do not rely on glowplugs because of compression which I never understood why. Besides, unlike the Powerstroke, but like the Duramax, the Cummins engines crank hot and the Powerstroke engines run cold because if they are gonna have injector problems that's when they are gonna act up. And you're right about the 6.7s being more reliable then the 5.9s and the Duramaxes and the older Powerstrokes because the 6.7s get about 370 horsepower which is the hp in my grandpa's 2010 Dodge Ram 3500 dually and his truck gets an average around 19 mpg on the highway. Besides as far as power and reliability is concerned the Powerstroke 7.3 isn't as powerful as the newer powerstrokes are but they are reliable. The 6.0s are the opposite; they are powerful but not reliable. The Cummins is the opposite of BOTH as they are reliable AND powerful but the GM 6.5s are the opposite of all three, they are neither powerful (with 190 hp) nor reliable which is why a lot guys would prefer the Duramaxes. As for the 6.7s, they can haul heavy loads very well because the horsepower it has, especially with a 6 speed transmission.

Last edited by Jonathan Ashbeck; 08-01-2017 at 12:53 AM..
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Huntsville
5,768 posts, read 5,478,481 times
Reputation: 6623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
That is why I say the 5.9s, the Powerstroke 7.3s and 6.0s, and Detroit 6.2s/6.5s sound like diesels because of the clackety sounds and you're right that the inlien 6'ers don't sound like V8 engines.

When you delete the new inline 6ers they sound more like a diesel than a V8. After all, most large diesels used in 18 wheelers are some variant of an inline 6.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
As a matter of fact, the Cummins are NOT V8 engines unlike the Duramax and Powerstroke engines.
Lol this is obvious to anyone who knows a little about a diesel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
The reason why Cummins switched from the 12 valve to the 24 valve in mid-1998 is because of emission requirements which was why Navistar went from manufacturing the Powerstroke 7.3 (Navistar T444E) engines to the 6.0s and then the 6.4s until Ford decided to make the Powerstrokes exclusively inhouse.

Actually, that isn't totally true..... Sure emissions were a part of it, but not the only part and especially not in 97.5 when Cummins switched to electronic injection.


All 12 valves are mechanical injection that require the injector to be off center of the cylinder to clear the valves. With this, the fuel doesn't burn evenly or create an even explosion that pushes the piston and therefore losing some efficiency. Mechanical engines require the ignition to begin slightly before top dead center to create the required explosion in the cylinder after TDC.


By going to a 4 valve head, the injector was positioned in the center of the cylinder. Also by moving to electronic injection, pre-ignition was removed at idle which significantly reduced the noise. On the 24v engines, the timing is modified so that there is just enough fuel injected pre-TDC to start the fire (but not enough to make the noise) and at the right moment in the a large burst of fuel is injected to create the explosion.


The overall goal was not to have one burst of pressure in the cylinder but instead to control the pressure and bring it up gradually. The new engines actually use 3 injection events. Pre-injection, primary injection, and post-injection events to control the pressure. This increases efficiency and horsepower/torque.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
Plus, another difference between the Powerstrokes and Duramaxes is that the Cummins do not rely on glowplugs because of compression which I never understood why. Besides, unlike the Powerstroke, but like the Duramax, the Cummins engines crank hot and the Powerstroke engines run cold because if they are gonna have injector problems that's when they are gonna act up.

Different designs. On designs with glowplugs, there is a small chamber next to the main combustion chamber where the glowplug resides. Fuel is injected there first which then ignites and starts the burn. When fuel is injected into the combustion chamber it ignites from the small fire already going in the chamber. This design lends itself to losing heat much faster therefore glowplugs are used as a helper. Since engines with grid heaters typically have large combustion chambers the hot air has further to travel to reach the colder combustion walls, so a grid heater is all that is really needed for the cylinder to be warm enough to create the explosion. The Cummins engines don't crank hot, they are just a different chamber design that doesn't require use of glowplugs. Rest assured that in a cold enough climate, the Cummins will struggle too and require some assistance with starting (plugging it in to keep the block warm).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
And you're right about the 6.7s being more reliable then the 5.9s and the Duramaxes and the older Powerstrokes because the 6.7s get about 370 horsepower which is the hp in my grandpa's 2010 Dodge Ram 3500 dually and his truck gets an average around 19 mpg on the highway. Besides as far as power and reliability is concerned the Powerstroke 7.3 isn't as powerful as the newer powerstrokes are but they are reliable. The 6.0s are the opposite; they are powerful but not reliable. The Cummins is the opposite of BOTH as they are reliable AND powerful but the GM 6.5s are the opposite of all three, they are neither powerful (with 190 hp) nor reliable which is why a lot guys would prefer the Duramaxes. As for the 6.7s, they can haul heavy loads very well because the horsepower it has, especially with a 6 speed transmission.

Horsepower isn't the biggest consideration in a diesel. Torque is. Torque gets you moving while HP holds you there. Couple that with the right gear ratio and it takes minimal horsepower to move something large.


If your grandpa's 2010 6.7 is bone stock it should be rated for 350 HP. If it's an auto, it's 650 lb-ft torque, and 6 speed is 610 lb-ft. In 2011 the auto trans version ramped up to 800 lb-ft while the 6 speed stayed at 610. The HO option (which I have) produced the same 350 HP but ramped up the torque to 850 lb-ft in the auto.


I haven't seen any 6.7L get 19mpg in stock form. They're choked down with emissions equipment. Heck I've only eeked out 19 mpg on my 2012 with full deletes and unloaded. Considering the DRW 3500 series weights quite a bit more it just isn't possible unless it's in a tailwind, unloaded, going down a hill.


What's your goal with this post (just curious). It seems that you might be reading brochures and posting information here as an attempt to educate people on diesels? Again, just curious.
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Old 08-08-2017, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,449 posts, read 2,880,389 times
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I won't argue. I'll just keep your word for it. But I do know the Cummins 6.7s are really powerful and reliable engines. They are good for hauling heavy loads, especially with a 6 speed transmission.
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Old 11-24-2017, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
4,449 posts, read 2,880,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
I won't argue. I'll just keep your word for it. But I do know the Cummins 6.7s are really powerful and reliable engines. They are good for hauling heavy loads, especially with a 6 speed transmission.
Plus, what I do like about the Cummins 6.7, which is standard in the Ram 3500, is quiet. My grandpa has a 2010 Ram 3500 Cummins dually and his truck can carry a fifth-wheel connection, such as his RV trailer.
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Huntsville
5,768 posts, read 5,478,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Ashbeck View Post
Plus, what I do like about the Cummins 6.7, which is standard in the Ram 3500, is quiet. My grandpa has a 2010 Ram 3500 Cummins dually and his truck can carry a fifth-wheel connection, such as his RV trailer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
By going to a 4 valve head, the injector was positioned in the center of the cylinder. Also by moving to electronic injection, pre-ignition was removed at idle which significantly reduced the noise. On the 24v engines, the timing is modified so that there is just enough fuel injected pre-TDC to start the fire (but not enough to make the noise) and at the right moment in the a large burst of fuel is injected to create the explosion.

The new engines actually use 3 injection events. Pre-injection, primary injection, and post-injection events to control the pressure.
The above is why the engine is quiet. The exhaust is quiet due to the restrictions placed on the system through the DPF/EGR.... The mufflers are actually pretty much just hollow. If you remove them but leave the emissions equipment on there is no noticeable change in decibel level.
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