How Do We Put Some Civility In The City Versus Suburb? (Cincinnati: apartment, transporting)

[kjbrill]

I have been trying to think how some more civility can be introduced into the ongoing City versus suburb debate. Whenever someone inquires in this forum about where to live, you can virtually predict what the responses will be.

[phool21]

Yea, I have noticed this as well. I think there are two issues here. I believe many are very proud of their neighborhoods and this pride sometimes transforms in to distaste for other regions. Also, I believe that although posters are well informed on their neighborhood, they are less informed about the neighborhood in question and feel that their expertise in one transfers well to the other.

I know this isn't a solution, but maybe it will shed a little light on the situation.

[kjbrill]

I will kick this off with my own response. I was born 1939 in Norwood, moved before I can remember to Deer Park where both sets of my grandparents resided. Moved again to Madeira during WWII where my parents rented a small house from someone in the military. After the war my dad purchased a lot about 4 doors up the same street and had our house built. Basically grew up in Madeira, great town, great people, great schools. Went to UC where I met my wife. Got married and rented an apartment in Madeira. In less than 2 years had 2 kids. Realized we needed a house. Bought a small 3-bedroom ranch in Madeira which was definitely a fixer upper. Stayed there for 11 years. When we realized our last, fourth, kid was on the way, spanning almost 13 years, my wife announced she wanted a 5-bedroom house. Being the skinflint I am, 5-bedroom houses in Madeira, Blue Ash, Montgomery were just not something I wanted to tackle. Ended up in Mason where we still are.

I understand how many like the more urban life for many reasons. I am just not one of them. Today I am looking out at my beds of daffodils and tulips just bursting into bloom - spring has sprung and the daylillies are beginning to sprout.

I admit to entirely loving where I live in the suburbs. But I hope I am broad minded enough to admit when circumstances warrant a more urban lifestyle. Commute distance, etc. must be considered, as family time should come first.

But some of what I observe speaks of I Have to convince you to justify my decision! This is what turns me off. Be confident in your own decision. Only pay attention to others when it makes sense to you.

[progmac]

I think we actually do relatively well on the Cincinnati forum, particularly compared to some of the more "global" suburb versus city discussions on the urban planning forum.

Perhaps the biggest part of the problem is the perpetuating of stereotypes by suburbanites towards the city and vice-versa. All it takes is one person to say the city isn't a safe place to raise a child and then those with children in the city fly off the handle about car crash statistics, etc. Or for one person to say the suburbs are a soulless wasteland and then the suburbanite goes on with "we have culture too" or "i can drive downtown in 35 minutes."

If we can accept that city versus suburb is mere choice and that neither is inherently better, we are off to a good start.

[Nomomo11]

Originally Posted by progmac

I think we actually do relatively well on the Cincinnati forum, particularly compared to some of the more "global" suburb versus city discussions on the urban planning forum.

Perhaps the biggest part of the problem is the perpetuating of stereotypes by suburbanites towards the city and vice-versa. All it takes is one person to say the city isn't a safe place to raise a child and then those with children in the city fly off the handle about car crash statistics, etc. Or for one person to say the suburbs are a soulless wasteland and then the suburbanite goes on with "we have culture too" or "i can drive downtown in 35 minutes."

If we can accept that city versus suburb is mere choice and that neither is inherently better, we are off to a good start.

I'd have to disagree with your last statement because of the fact that sprawl eats up green space and farmland. To me this is detrimental to our entire society. I have no problem with small towns, or well planned and walkable suburban communities. It is when everything is turned into subdivisions and parking lots that I am bothered, because I think it really takes a toll on our local environment and sense of community. Parts of Mason are gorgeous, and other parts seem to lack that same sense of community and cohesiveness that defines the older portion of the area.

I try to live and let live, yet I also think we have a responsibility to each other as humans, to live as sustainable a life as possible. While every style of community (including more urban areas) has work to do in this regard, I cannot see how continuous expansion into former wilderness or farmland is a good or moral idea when viewed in this context.

Kjbrill, that does not, however, mean I think everyone living in a subdivision is immoral or bad, as I realize people have numerous reasons to do so. I do think, however, that companies developing this land should be driven by more than just profit, and should work to integrate them with the surrounding landscape as harmoniously as possible.

This is the main problem us urbanites have with Suburban living. We really don't think you are all vacuous, boring people. Just that this style of living is not sustainable. I don't want to force you into the cities or out of your homes, I'd just like it if some of them incorporated a greater sense of community, with sidewalks, and Mainstreet business districts etc.

Just my ponderings...

[kjbrill]

Nomomo11... Some of your statements I just don't understand, like the suburban lifestyle is not sustainable. Just what do you find unsustainable about it? And a lack of community? I see people jogging, walking their pets constantly in my neighborhood. And those who are really serious about physical workouts have literally miles of bike paths right at their disposal. So please explain just exactly what they are missing.

Your comments on profit are well taken. At the same time, without profits our business climate grinds to a halt. When I first moved here to what was a very rural farming community, I would not haved guessed there would have ever been a MIllion dollar house in the locality. Now there are several.

We can lament the bulldozing of the farmland, but as long as there is a buck to be made it will continue. You can argue morality or whatever you call it, but when the dollar signs are out everything else becomes the background.

[Sarah Perry]

Sprawl development is inherently wasteful. It's a sort of chicken/egg question as to whether it exists because large numbers of people really like it and drive market demand for it, or because it's something large numbers of people believe is the only viable option for a quality lifestyle for themselves and their families. In a sense, the book was prety much written on sprawl many years ago, at the point the US government decided to direct the country toward the passenger car as a primary means of transportation.

But I think with what is probably a permanent economic downturn, we're going to be seeing a lot less of it.

[Briolat21]

The problem is not in the civility - I think we don't do a bad job of that here. The problem is that too many people basically feel their opinion is the *right* one, and then say that in a very civil way. In the end - if often ends up a very civil "he said/she said" type of thread.

That means for some of us, who wish to avoid rehashing the whole thing over and over and over again - we just stay away.

[goyguy]

Maybe it's my thick skin, but I've never picked up much rancor in city/suburb threads. And I think folks make inquiries in forums like this knowing full well that any response they get will be steeped in bias. For my part I try to bring out the positives of each community when specific ones are brought up. I don't see myself as any sort of missionary or ambassador. If somebody's dead set on setting up housekeeping in a Dreesville that has to be within 10 minutes' drive of a Wal-Mart it's not my place to try to change their thinking.
"Sustainability" has to do with how much the physical and social ecology can withstand. The amount of land we have to work with isn't increasing. And society gets fragmented all the more each time yet another gated community is carved out. Hamilton County has lost nearly all of its farmland to subdivisions, meaning that an ever increasing amount of produce + meat + dairy products has to be transported from elsewhere. Most of that transporting is done by highway, which in turn means that existing roads have to be continually widened and upgraded - if they weren't already to accommodate the commuters to the exurbs which displaced the farms. It's not "tree hugging" to say this pattern's already gone too far.
Whenever somebody wants to only narrow down their choices of location between one sprawl 'burb and another I usually keep out of the discussion. But that's the problem with us humans, "just the facts" usually isn't going to be all that's produced when we write out our answers.

[wrightflyer]

On most of the Ohio forums, there is not all that much hostility between suburbanites and urbanites. Is their conflict, sure, but it remains civil 99% of the time. Now onto the debate that has been brought out of this thread.

I can go on about smart planning and how well it has worked in other metros (Kentlands, Rosemary Beach, other DPZ developments, and other New-Urban places). The fact is it is still for some reason or another smart-planning is considered a greater risk in investment at the finanicial level for a developer than a traditional development. Clearly, places like Kentlands demands a higher price for its housing stock, even in this downturn, because of the realized quality of life. Sarah, I truely think it's the latter of the two options in the chicken/egg question. I don't see people going on about loving Tysons Corner, or even Fairfax, VA, to the point that people love Reston, VA. At the risk of being labled a socialist, I think we have become too wrapped up in profits and not enough in giving back to the community and our space. It's this drive for more, which is a pseudo-Capitalism, that is doing us some harm, including our sprawl, expansion, or whatever you want to call it. But this is beginning to digress.

By the way, mixed-use zoning is only the first step. What is needed is either regional cooperation in all new builds or even across what is currently out there throughout the metro. Perhaps even Dayton should be included because the sprawl up I-75 is only going to get worse.