12 year olds playing "robbers and victims" -- with guns (Columbus: crime, unemployment)

[wolden]

No wonder why Cincinnati seems to have such an endless supply of teenaged criminals. They are getting "trained" as early as age 12. Talk about a broken down society!

A Game Of Cops And Robbers Goes Too Far - Cincinnati News Story - WLWT Cincinnati (http://www.wlwt.com/news/28853400/detail.html - broken link)

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by wolden

No wonder why Cincinnati seems to have such an endless supply of teenaged criminals. They are getting "trained" as early as age 12. Talk about a broken down society!

A Game Of Cops And Robbers Goes Too Far - Cincinnati News Story - WLWT Cincinnati (http://www.wlwt.com/news/28853400/detail.html - broken link)

Well, at least we can thank goodness kids don't see anything about guns, crime, etc. on TV. Just imagine what kind of mess society would be in if THAT started.

[motorman]

Agreed, Sarah--after all, how are we gonna grow our new batch of Timothy Thomas wannabes unless we start training them young and in front of a TV and on the mean streets of Cincinnati? (just another sensationalized story about nothing that should have died before airing)

[austiNati]

Timothy Thomas wannabes ??? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[wolden]

I think its a very telling article, serious stuff. The fact that there is apparently no solution to the vicious cycle of poverty and crime in Cincinnati is certainly a legitimate topic for a Cincinnati forum? (Maybe not this forum). I don't know why no one has any outrage about the condition of large segments of our city and society.

Sarah, what does tv have to do with this? Here is evidence of criminal socialization starting at a very young age-- real socialization, not some imaginary effect of tv. Hasn't anyone wondered where all the teenagers with guns robbing people continually in this city come from? How do they get so warped by age 16 or so? Why can't it be fixed?

The usual responses to this sort of thing is to ignore it or to say it happens everywhere and therefore why worry about it. Easier to talk about goetta or pigs or chili. Oh well.

[goyguy]

Originally Posted by austiNati

Timothy Thomas wannabes ??? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

My reaction exactly. No weapons, no drugs, wrong place, wrong time. I once almost got pumped full o' lead by an overanxious cop who'd leaped on my porch with Glock drawn. A nervous neighbor heard doors open & shut by me, for some reason thought someone was breaking in, and called 911. Since I keep no guns I stayed a wannabe - I guess. (Who among us wouldn't lunge for the revolver in their night stand after hearing somebody vault their porch railing after midnight?)

Kids have always imitated what goes on around them or what they hear getting talked about. The sad part of this is that it's treated as a non-issue when children anywhere act out criminal behavior because it's what they experience in their environment. It's the old "What do you expect?" along with shrugged shoulders. BB guns can kill, too, so I hope the perps got a good talkin' to.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by wolden

I think its a very telling article, serious stuff. The fact that there is apparently no solution to the vicious cycle of poverty and crime in Cincinnati is certainly a legitimate topic for a Cincinnati forum? (Maybe not this forum). I don't know why no one has any outrage about the condition of large segments of our city and society.

Sarah, what does tv have to do with this? Here is evidence of criminal socialization starting at a very young age-- real socialization, not some imaginary effect of tv. Hasn't anyone wondered where all the teenagers with guns robbing people continually in this city come from? How do they get so warped by age 16 or so? Why can't it be fixed?

The usual responses to this sort of thing is to ignore it or to say it happens everywhere and therefore why worry about it. Easier to talk about goetta or pigs or chili. Oh well.

Okay, it was a flippant response. But why you would assume "no one has any outrage" or why you would think that any concrete solutions would come from people spending time discussing this specific topic are things I don't understand.

Please outline your own solutions here on the board. I'd be interested in reading them.

[Tubby513]

I'm not sure what there is to talk about. The kids aren't stupid, they probably have older brothers, or just see older teens doing this, so they think that's cool, or that's the way to grow up, being tough and robbing to make ends meet.

[wolden]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

Please outline your own solutions here on the board. I'd be interested in reading them.

Well, I admit I don't think there have been good solutions. I think the whole social environment is corrupted. So how can that possibly be fixed? Another way to say it is that there may be a completely different subculture that is adapted to its own socioeconomic conditions and therefore does not necessarily see things that I would consider aberrant, aberrant. As a recent example, a start football player was shot, but it turned out, apparently, it was in the commision of a robbery. Maybe a lot of things I think of as sociopathic or wrong are not seen that way in other subcultures.

How is all that relevant? You can't impose change on a situation if the participants don't think there is anything wrong. Maybe those 12 year olds weren't displaying particularly "wrong" behavior in their environment. Maybe n some neighborhoods, it is normal and almost necessary to know how to handle guns at a young age.

But beyond all the relativism, I think most solutions (liberal and otherwise) simply have not worked. So I would explore a few more radical solutions to the whole problem of the urban blight and socioeconomic decay: 1) legalize drugs so that the whole illegal drug culture with all its violence and ill effects are excised 2) Change the juvenile justice system to stop ineffective "protection" of serious juvenile crimes-- build a new approach that wouldn't "wipe the slate clean" since in reality those slates are not really clean. 3) eliminate dependence cultures. require work (whatever it is) for any entitlement rather than just giving things away. Eliminate prgrams that incentivize conter productive behaviors (such as the much cited single mother benefits) 4) continue and enhance Head start programs at the earliest possible age. 5) Find jobs!! fr 14 million unemployed americans, but also for the huge numbers of inner city residents who have 30% unemployment and almost zero options (besides illegal drugs and crime) to get ahead.

That is enough and probably not a very good effort but I tried. I feel helpless and hopeless about urban blight but, I do feel it is to everyone's benefit to try to fix it...someday.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by wolden

Well, I admit I don't think there have been good solutions. I think the whole social environment is corrupted. So how can that possibly be fixed? Another way to say it is that there may be a completely different subculture that is adapted to its own socioeconomic conditions and therefore does not necessarily see things that I would consider aberrant, aberrant. As a recent example, a start football player was shot, but it turned out, apparently, it was in the commision of a robbery. Maybe a lot of things I think of as sociopathic or wrong are not seen that way in other subcultures.

How is all that relevant? You can't impose change on a situation if the participants don't think there is anything wrong. Maybe those 12 year olds weren't displaying particularly "wrong" behavior in their environment. Maybe n some neighborhoods, it is normal and almost necessary to know how to handle guns at a young age.

But beyond all the relativism, I think most solutions (liberal and otherwise) simply have not worked. So I would explore a few more radical solutions to the whole problem of the urban blight and socioeconomic decay: 1) legalize drugs so that the whole illegal drug culture with all its violence and ill effects are excised 2) Change the juvenile justice system to stop ineffective "protection" of serious juvenile crimes-- build a new approach that wouldn't "wipe the slate clean" since in reality those slates are not really clean. 3) eliminate dependence cultures. require work (whatever it is) for any entitlement rather than just giving things away. Eliminate prgrams that incentivize conter productive behaviors (such as the much cited single mother benefits) 4) continue and enhance Head start programs at the earliest possible age. 5) Find jobs!! fr 14 million unemployed americans, but also for the huge numbers of inner city residents who have 30% unemployment and almost zero options (besides illegal drugs and crime) to get ahead.

That is enough and probably not a very good effort but I tried. I feel helpless and hopeless about urban blight but, I do feel it is to everyone's benefit to try to fix it...someday.

Let's dig a little deeper, and imagine for a moment here in Ohio the political prospects for any candidate who proposes legalizing even marijuana, much less cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine. Let's imagine the political prospects for a candidate who proposes spending the money it would take to establish and operate a large-scale government make-work program, even if the participants were people already receiving assistance. Remember, a lot of those people have no concept of what "work" even is. It would require a huge new bureaucracy to educate and manage them.

But don't stop there. Let's imagine the political prospects for a candidate who wants to spend more, not less, money on programs like Head Start. Have you noticed what the trend is in Columbus these days? Heard of SB5, by chance?

As for the 14 million jobs, I think if there were any solution to that problem, one or both of the major parties would have fastened on it by now and would be "creating jobs" like crazy. I guess we can always try another 30 years or so of large tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy--that seems to be working like a charm so far.

Seriously, I think your ideas are perfectly rational. Unfortunately, I don't think most of our fellow citizens in this area share that opinion.