Development News (Cincinnati, Washington: crime, place to live, law)

[Bhiggins]

People consistently bash the Westside for where all the "non-desirables" are going... This is very true but too broad of a statement, honestly.

What about areas affected by this on the Northside (Yes I know this is odd for Cincinnatians but I like to think of it as this)... Forest Park, Evendale, Tri County, WESTCHESTER (YES), Hamilton, Springfield Township (More north-central), COLERAIN... Why so much hate for the West?

To the east: MILFORD, Walnut Hills, Union Township, Part of Anderson Township, Mt. Washington (Improving), Avondale (What side is this on not sure if you can really say it is on a side but I would say East personally.)...

But on the West you cannot deny you are seeing this in... DELHI, GREEN TOWNSHIP (Definitely), Westwood, West Price Hill, Cheviot (Friends call it "West-Westwood" (lol))...

I wouldn't say most attention needs to be focused on the West as too many people think, but EVENLY distributed on each part of town! I realize OTR has an EXTREME amount of momentum to be something amazing, and already is the American example of a major turnaround and our city gets much praise for it... But are we sacrificing too much? Look how bad Southern parts of Avondale and Price Hill areas are getting due to (most likely) the people from OTR and surrounding areas moving outward!

//www.city-data.com/crime/crime...nati-Ohio.html

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by Bhiggins

But are we sacrificing too much? Look how bad Southern parts of Avondale and Price Hill areas are getting due to (most likely) the people from OTR and surrounding areas moving outward!

You bring up a good point, albeit beyond the scope of this thread. People have to live somewhere. Where do people go when they're displaced from gentrified neighborhoods? Where is the development of housing for low-income people? Where is the attention to neighborhoods that are not Over-the-Rhine, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Oakley, etc?

Or do we just not give a damn?

[kjbrill]

The City core has organizations like 3CDC to foster development and redevelopment. I understand they are very involved with the new DunnhumbyUSA building. Some other neighborhoods, like Knox Hill where RestorationConsultant resides have strong neighborhood organizations which are making things happen. But I keep having to remind myself where Knox Hill even is. But soon as you begin to radiate outward things fall off rapidly.

My son lives in Mt Airy off Kipling. His little subdivision for years has been shielded by the Mercy Hospital just across the road. It is my understanding they will be moving to the Mercy West facility at I-74 and North Bend next year. So what will happen when the current hospital is a big empty hulk? They are seeing signs of other deterioration throughout the area where they live. So they are feeling anxious and thinking about leaving while they can still get some value out of their house. The real estate market of the past few years has devastated just about everyone. Home prices have plummeted. In some older neighborhoods they dropped to the point where deciding to relocate is akin to starting over since the current house is worth so little. This is a major blow to the psychic of a person who has been paying on a house for years hoping to get ahead.

Just the other day, I was reading of a new development in OTR, said to be 65 residential apartments in 13 buildings at a total cost of $45 million. My math says this is a $215,000 per apartment investment, and this is for renewal, not new built. It is being touted as market-rate living, from $574-$815 per month rent. So I look up a typical 30 year mortgage for $215,000 at even today's low rates and see it would cost nearly $1,000 per month. And I would still owe taxes plus any maintenance costs. So some of these projects just do not make financial sense to me, including how you spend $215,000 on rehabbed apartments. I just get the feeling someone is raking off the top and someone else will be left holding the bag. I know call it the pessimist in me.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

You bring up a good point, albeit beyond the scope of this thread. People have to live somewhere. Where do people go when they're displaced from gentrified neighborhoods? Where is the development of housing for low-income people? Where is the attention to neighborhoods that are not Over-the-Rhine, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Oakley, etc?

Or do we just not give a damn?

Cincinnati has a lot of poor people, which is not something you can reasonably lay at the feet of city government to fix. That said, I think the city would be so greatly improved as to be unrecognizable if just a portion of the money that's wasted on big-fix, crony-enriching, bogus and/or failed projects were diverted into meaningful support for SMALL projects and inititatives in neighborhoods. You could do a zillion of such projects with the million dollars that's going to one Mahogany's. But the prevailing culture is, IMO, always going to preclude that.

The areas of town that already had a large amount of Section 8 housing are already getting hammered with crime by people displaced by downtown gentrification. Don't anybody jump on my case: I'm not saying everyone moving out of OTR is a criminal, and I'm happy that OTR is turning around. I'm not particularly happy that the city seems to have zero plan for dealing with the unwanted, unintended consequences.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

...My son lives in Mt Airy off Kipling. His little subdivision for years has been shielded by the Mercy Hospital just across the road. It is my understanding they will be moving to the Mercy West facility at I-74 and North Bend next year. So what will happen when the current hospital is a big empty hulk? ...

Just the other day, I was reading of a new development in OTR, said to be 65 residential apartments in 13 buildings at a total cost of $45 million. My math says this is a $215,000 per apartment investment, and this is for renewal, not new built. It is being touted as market-rate living, from $574-$815 per month rent. So I look up a typical 30 year mortgage for $215,000 at even today's low rates and see it would cost nearly $1,000 per month. And I would still owe taxes plus any maintenance costs. ..

Just a couple points of clarification: I believe I read that the plan is to keep Mercy Mt. Airy open as a sort of emergency/clinic/outpatient facility.

Also, it might not make a critical difference, but I think the type of residential development you're discussing is subject to the city's 10-year tax abatement. And probably many of the people who're the market for such properties, either as owners or investors, figure they'll sell them before the 10 years is up, or that after than time frame whatever they're paying on their existing mortgage will be a good deal.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Where do people go when they're displaced from gentrified neighborhoods? Where is the development of housing for low-income people?

I think we are assuming a mass displacement of people when that is not the case at present, to the best of my knowledge. A good portion of the re-development downtown involves vacant buildings. The last significant out-migration from OTR was after the riots in 2001. Obviously, these people went somewhere but it wasn't due to gentrification.

To the city's credit they are working feverishly to provide affordable housing via North Rhine Projects. They are bringing 13 vacant buildings back and keeping them affordable and accepting section 8.

It may be a small effort but at least it's something. Just giving credit where it's due.

[CinciFan]

^You took the words right out of my mouth TomJones.

What is this displacement from Over-the-Rhine everyone is talking about? The neighborhood pretty much emptied out after the riots, and almost every property renovated in Over-the-Rhine was vacant/condemmed.

[Bhiggins]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

Just a couple points of clarification: I believe I read that the plan is to keep Mercy Mt. Airy open as a sort of emergency/clinic/outpatient facility.

Also, it might not make a critical difference, but I think the type of residential development you're discussing is subject to the city's 10-year tax abatement. And probably many of the people who're the market for such properties, either as owners or investors, figure they'll sell them before the 10 years is up, or that after than time frame whatever they're paying on their existing mortgage will be a good deal.

Correct for the most part in the first part here, Sarah Perry.

Both the Westwood location and the Mt. Airy location will continue Emergency related services as usual with little to no change according to news sources and the official website. So we won't be seeing a big, hulking, deserted building for the homeless and drug addicts to hang around in.

[restorationconsultant]

Originally Posted by CinciFan

^You took the words right out of my mouth TomJones.

What is this displacement from Over-the-Rhine everyone is talking about? The neighborhood pretty much emptied out after the riots, and almost every property renovated in Over-the-Rhine was vacant/condemmed.

And I would add people are being 'displaced' in Knox Hill either. The neighborhood was hit hard by the foreclosure crisis and many just walked away add to that city inspection who slapped VBML's and condemns on everything as it was in the foreclosure process and my neighborhood was just about empty. When I bought my house there were 5 occupied properties out of 20. FYI all the section 8 slumlords from OTR bought in my area. They miked them , mortgaged them when money was easy, and walked away. Now eleven are occupied and no section 8. With the restorations underway right now we add 3 more owner occupied on my block this year, two more years we should be back to "normal". Normal was the 1930's ,40's and 50's when the block was fully occupied, almost everyone owned their house and more importantly cared what happens in the neighborhood.

The problem with no one wants to talk about (because its politically incorrect) is that people who are in section 8 have just about everything handed to them don't care about where they live and drag neighborhood down with them.

HUD is looking at lead based paint removal as a potential certification for section 8 rentals. Guess where the slumlords are headed when that happens? The townships, and the burbs, because that is the only place to find houses built after lead based paint was banned. In fact you are already seeinga lot of apartment buildings in the townships 'quetly accepting section 8 now because demographics are shifting

3CDC, and others, can build low income projects in OTR but 5-7 years out they will be ready for restore again. But that's Ok. These rentals are really just 'holding patterns' for development. You keep it section 8 for 5-7 years then move everyone out and do high end condos. Anyone who says we are doing section 8 low income because 'we care', isn't telling the truth. It's a way to get federal tax credits to redo the building, tax abatements, and have the Federal government pay you for while so you can bring the rest of your other properties up, raise property values through the roof then, Bye Bye Section 8 , hello more luxury condos.

I have watched this happen in just about every city I do consulting in, Cincinnati is just a little behind. OTR will not be a diverse income neighborhood because the people want the upscale neighborhood, want no reminders of its past.

It's driven by basic economics. The real solution is getting OTR upscale, repopulated, and a tourist destination, thereby creating retail, service and hospitality jobs which, while they do not pay a lot will at least be there for those with minimal skills or education to get out of their situations. People can be moved out of poverty and to the working class, they will just commute in from the townships because they wont be able to afford the neighborhoods they work in.

If this city ever gets behind restoration and Heritage Toursim ina big way. We could make bid dent in both poverty and unemeplyment as long as people want out of poverty and want to work.

[kjbrill]

Sorry, in my earlier post I meant to state $14 million, not $45 million. But still, at a cost of $215,000 per apartment it seems high to me.