Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-17-2013, 12:33 AM
 
16,345 posts, read 17,950,202 times
Reputation: 7878

Advertisements

restorationconsultant;32263217]
Quote:
Indy downtown mall is one of the most sucessfull in North America and that
includes suburban malls.
You must be joking.

Quote:
Skywalks allow Indianpolis to move huge crowds from the various parking garages,
through venues like circle center malls where most retail is on the upper
floors, to sporting events and the convention center. FYI Indianapolis downtown
has 75,000 parking spaces downtown. Indy also has one of the most sucessfull
Convention Centers in the country. The skywalks prevent street level
traffic/pedestrian gridlock during sporting event and conventions.
Wait, so you're arguing that having 75,000 parking spaces is a positive for a supposedly urban downtown? And that preventing pedestrian activity is a good thing??

Quote:
As to the other poster who intimated indy next "Vibrant" neighborhood is 6
miles away (probably refferring to Broad Ripple), has obviously not seen
Fountain Square, Mass Avenue, Old Northside, Holy Cross, St Joseph, Herron
Morton, Fall creek place, the Canal District, Woodruff place, etc.

A vibrant neighborhood is more than Bars and trendy shops. Its a place where
people buy a homes and establish connections with others around them.
While Keith generalizes negatives about literally every city that isn't MSP, he may have a point about Indy. It does not have a single neighborhood with double-digit population density, perhaps the only major city in the Midwest without that. That does not indicate vibrancy to me, and certainly your opinions on skywalks and enclosed malls suggest you may not actually want it, anyway.

Quote:
But getting to this city and this election, The people who voted in this
election I bet own their homes, have kids in school and probably have to
balance a checkbook every week. Unlike an election with a presidential cycle,
they were likely not looking at a suggestion ballot nor bused to the polls from
the projects.This election was really about neighborhoods and not just one
neighborhood at the expense of all others and about fiscal responsibility.
Um, no. The fiscal responsibility argument regarding any form of mass transit has long been a joke. And anyone who has ever read even a little bit about rail would know that it would not only benefit the neighborhood it was built in. Meaning you don't have to live in the "projects" to benefit.

Quote:
For this city to be sucessfull we have to explore all our assets and we need to
leverage not just one asset but several to have a sucessfull city that attracts
a variety of people to our city. For example most of the people moving in and
restoring in my neighborhood, are not from Cincinnati, not interested in living
in the density of OTR but want to be close. The others are people who were
'pioneering" in OTR a few years ago and are getting priced out of their rentals
or can't afford the propery taxes as prices are going through the roof.
So what? More parking? More skywalks? Have you heard of this newfangled policy called Urban Renewal? And what you're describing is the process of gentrification and it happens every single time in every city. A declined neighborhood improves, prices go up, some people are priced out. It's the way things are. The only way to not have that happen is to not bother improving neighborhoods in the first place. Is that what you're saying?

Quote:
I can tell you one thing I know for fact; since 2009 when my neighborhood was
formed, through a historic home tour attended by people from several states,
launches of 3 save not raze projects which have received state and national
attention for theior approach, over 3.4 million dollars in private investment in
our community at a grass roots level, the outgoing mayor (or his staff) never
responded to ONE email on any community issue, nor followed up on any concern
from our community. Too busy traveling the world at taxpayer expense, to take
care of his own back yard.
If you were sending him emails with ideas like above, I wouldn't have responded either.

Quote:
That is a serious defect in leadership in my opinion.

I suspect it can only get better.
Oh, I can see it getting much worse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-17-2013, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,046 posts, read 12,322,586 times
Reputation: 10365
What is it with people judging the success of a city based on its freaking malls? I'm seriously mystified by this. Please explain it to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2013, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis and Cincinnati
682 posts, read 1,622,472 times
Reputation: 611
jcbmh81.

Despite the loss of Nordstrums, the sales per square foot in 2009 were 329.90 per square ft and increased to 354.00 per sq ft in 2012 and that was with only 88.3 per cent occupancy. FYI retail anaylists (nor simon), never expected Nordstroms to stay downtown. The circle center mall relies heavily on vistitors and conventioners. That was always the strategy, rely on that while you rebuild your downtown environment. The continues growth in downtown housing (Indy is adding another 5700 apartmnet units over the next 3 years) is contributing to the improvement.

We can't apply the Indy model top Cincinnati and I was not suggesting we should, but we should look at what is working there, near downtown neighborhood development and apply that in Cincinnati, instead of pretending thos neighborhoods area right off and we should bulldoze them. That Urban renewal model is called DETROIT by the way.

As to Urban Renewal? Been doing that for 30 years. That is why I know that OTR will never have 'super density'. It was super dense when it was a immigrant slum, it was super dense when it was a section 8 slum. The wealthy don't like density (except perhaps in New York and "mexico city" where you seem to be from now after a stint in Columbus). Oh and we have those "newfangled things" called fire codes and individual bathrooms. No one would want the OTR of the 1920's it was dirty, smelly, and frankly not a pleasant place to live, people were poor and had to live in that density because they could not afford to go anywhere else.

In fact, my prediction that I made in 2009 was that OTR would build out in small units initially at 150-175 a sq ft and that would rise to the 300 per sq it is now (some projects are at 350-400 sq ft. That market tends to be upscale at this point, and does not want 900 sq ft at 270K they want 1800 sq ft at 550K or they want 4500 sq ft at a mill, and what we will see (just like indy, is those early small units will be 'combined' into larger units). I expect to start see more single family, oh wait 3CDC is already doing that at more upscale prices. Also, more and more buildings are being bought by individulals and small developers to build out as large single family homes (with a retail street level space) and not cobbled up into six tiny condos above it. Oh and people want garages behind them for 'gasp" cars! In fact I'm working with a client in NOL on engineering for 'lifts' to get 4 cars in 2 car carriage house.

OTR will never have super density (unless you start building towers there and trust me that will not happen). Nor will OTR ever have the density to be self sustaining economy, it need to rely on tourism. Nobody (in charge) has figured that out yet but having lived in Charleston, and Savannah they will need to rely on it whether it is suburbanites driving in (in their cars) or people coming vacation in Cincinnati for its architecture.

The idealist (affordable) OTR day is over. In fact I venture that OTR is sucessful with or without the streetcar and perhaps better off without it as the people who would likely most use it will not be able to afford OTR soon.

You cannot apply a one-size-fits-all Urban planning to all cities, each are different and each require different models. Cincinnati's model should look more like Charleston or Savannah and not Portland.

In my opinion, this election allows OTR to grow up and stop letting the "hipsters" who know nothing about neighborhood revitilization, dictating what OTR should be based on idealism, not practicallity. They obviously are not smart enough to figure out that they are getting priced out of their own neighborhood.

Our model should be a restored urban OTR neighborhood with quality infill (that the vast majority wont be able to afford to live in), with a ring of nearby (more affordable) neighborhoods around and some form of bus transportation to bring in service workers, who can't afford either, in from the townships. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but thats the way the world works in 'reborn' urban cities. The very wealthy live downtown, the moderate to middle class live near downtown and the poor are on the fringes. The rest of the well to do live in the burbs where they are totaly happy with strip malls and large mega groceries.

Almost all the "affordable housing" in OTR was built with time limits at which point it can go full market rate. And no, we will not have 'rent control' in Cincinnati as it would be the quickest way to kill all development. The only reason low income housing exists in OTR right now is to get the Fed subsidy to offset the cost of rehabilitation of the building to get the market rate stuff in to actually pay for it.

Maybe with this mayor and this council, sanity and fiscal responsibility that happen, lets hope so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2013, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,471 posts, read 6,180,230 times
Reputation: 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hensleya1 View Post
(1) Killing the streetcar
(2) Killing the parking sellout
(3) Firing Milton Dohoney
Get a clue. The streetcar will be an uphill battle for both sides, the port authority dropped the parking deal, and Dohoney resigned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-17-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
3,860 posts, read 3,101,281 times
Reputation: 2272
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertwrench View Post
You need to stop listening to the rhetoric coming out of some groups that don't want you to think for yourself. Your assertion could not be farther from the truth. 401ks were created so the average working man and woman could save pre income tax in the hopes that when they retired they would be in a lower tax bracket. 401k's are all about tax code not some form of CEO welfare as you claim.

I worked many years in a unionized shop that had a 401k system that everyone in that shop was saving a huge nest egg and some were over 1 million dollars. These were average middle class citizens who paid into the system for years along with an amount from the company. These guys are going to be way better off at retirement than if they had a pension, and this savings was possible even in a small manufacturing plant because of the 401k.

Imagine if the city put away into a 401k just a fraction of what they do for the pensions, every single one of the city employees who spent their working years there could retire millionaires. Every single one of them. Don't be jealous of those on Wall Street getting wealthy from the markets. Join them and become partial owner of a company too by purchasing securities.
Unless you are a government worker who can put his 401k money in the G-fund then the money you put away in a 401k is not guaranteed to be there in case the stock market crashes. Read the fine print. At least pension funds are guaranteed by the Federal government. I know several people at work that had money in the 401k system that when the tech bubble bursted in the early 2000's they lost most of their money. Same thing occurred a few years later in the 2008 housing bubble crash. A PATTERN OF BOOM AND BUST. Now the Federal Reserve is propping up the stock market by buying assets and nobody seems concerned that when the Fed suddenly stops and the trap door is opened again. The insiders will know and will have moved their money out but the rest of the suckers will be caught again with their pants down. Why would i join them by purchasing securities from Wall Street whose firms regularly engage in securities fraud, market manipulation, pump and dump schemes, etc without the fear of being criminally prosecuted by the Federal government ? The civil fines they pay when they are caught are just considered a cost of business.

Last edited by Coseau; 11-17-2013 at 01:26 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2013, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
477 posts, read 661,039 times
Reputation: 275
Quote:
As to Urban Renewal? Been doing that for 30 years. That is why I know that OTR will never have 'super density'. It was super dense when it was a immigrant slum, it was super dense when it was a section 8 slum. The wealthy don't like density (except perhaps in New York and "mexico city" where you seem to be from now after a stint in Columbus). Oh and we have those "newfangled things" called fire codes and individual bathrooms. No one would want the OTR of the 1920's it was dirty, smelly, and frankly not a pleasant place to live, people were poor and had to live in that density because they could not afford to go anywhere else.
There are plenty of other places around the world where the rich don't mind density. To cite a few more American examples, check out San Francisco, Chicago, and Boston. Even Santa Monica and parts of West LA are quite affluent and has double digit density. Going internationally we have pretty much all of Europe and East Asia. A trip to an affluent very dense Spanish suburb of Bilbao when I was a kid showed me a very different vision of fine living than the "American Dream" people of your age and older bought into.

I think that dream is altering with people of my generation (and arguably some members of Gen X though to a lesser extent) - we want walkable communities and Cincinnati has the shell of one of the most walkable communities in the whole country in its basin. Cars are okay but part of a larger equation of transportation.

I think the best plan is a mix of Portland and Savannah btw. Boston probably is a good model though to see how a formerly backwards place was able to lift itself out of its rut and move forward to be a top tourist destination and major economic driver in the country.

Also, one thing that is really nice about Cincinnati provided that more emphasis is put on preservation instead of demolition is its one of the few American cities that has both a hyper dense core, and lower density outer neighborhoods - if people weren't so pitted against each other in that town it could have both and do both very successfully, particularly given the quality of historic housing stock that is available.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,994,294 times
Reputation: 1929
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilworms2 View Post
...I think that dream is altering with people of my generation (and arguably some members of Gen X though to a lesser extent) - we want walkable communities and Cincinnati has the shell of one of the most walkable communities in the whole country in its basin...

...Also, one thing that is is really nice about Cincinnati provided that more emphasis is put on preservation instead of demolition is it's one of the few American cities that has both a hyper dense core, and lower density outer neighborhoods - if people weren't so pitted against each other in that town it could have both and do both very successfully, particularly given the quality of historic housing stock that is available.
Appreciate these insights, neilworms2. Cincinnati's been blessed with so much, but its assets need to be tenaciously held onto, w/o explanation, apology, nor compromise. (Agreed?)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2013, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
477 posts, read 661,039 times
Reputation: 275
Quote:
Appreciate these insights, neilworms2. Cincinnati's been blessed with so much, but its assets need to be tenaciously held onto, w/o explanation, apology, nor compromise. (Agreed?)
At the very least people in the Cincinnati region need to get out a little more and think more critically about their city and what it is in within the context of the rest of the country. Its not hard, just using your eyes and your brain and putting two and two together.

Seeing Cranley explicitly mention Kenwood as a competitor to downtown doesn't give me much confidence in the prevailing myopic attitude changing anytime soon.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2013, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Mason, OH
9,259 posts, read 16,702,627 times
Reputation: 1954
Kenwood is not a competitor to downtown. It is a compliment. We need all of the Kenwoods and Florences to be successful we can get. Without them this area may sink to the level of Detroit, the City itself is doing little to prevent it.

This past election may set Cincinnati back another 10 years. That is my thinking and I don't even live in the City. It is a abhorrent lament when people outide of the city have to recognize when the citizens of the Good City of Cincinnati have gone googa.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-18-2013, 06:53 PM
 
Location: MPLS
1,068 posts, read 1,419,498 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
restorationconsultant;32263217] While Keith generalizes negatives about literally every city that isn't MSP, he may have a point about Indy. It does not have a single neighborhood with double-digit population density, perhaps the only major city in the Midwest without that. That does not indicate vibrancy to me...
Neighborhoods like Fall Creek Place have little walkability to them and areas like Mass Ave is Downtown, full of parking lot gaps, and don't go on very long. If you think these are vibrant neighborhoods you need to visit other cities with neighborhoods with more than one neighborhood that can go toe to toe or best Broad Ripple. Smaller cities like Seattle and Portland (both in the 600,000 population range) offer dozens of such neighborhoods, so even if we were to pretend neighborhoods like Fountain Square or Meridian-Kessler were equals to Green Lake or West/East Queen Anne Indy still falls way far behind with neighborhoods were you can walk, ride the rails, or bike to get to work, go shopping or other daily necessities w/o a car.

I've literally spoken favorably about other cities like the one above because they've earned that, some of others listed here are from a pro-urban/Cincinnati blogger's post you must have missed on the last page:



I know you've seen me note how none of Ohio's cities match up with some of these by name, but I don't typically mention SLC or Charlotte since while they have some progressive transit as far as rail they tend to lack in other departments. Charlotte has only a handful of walkable neighborhoods, disjointed bike infrastructure, and is largely a mess of sprawl (bet that description is making you homesick) which is not much to aspire to and the same applies to SLC (only a faction the size of the size of the Cs) save for bike infrastructure which is more comprehensive than any large Ohio city by covering downtown and connecting to several other neighborhoods, but I guess it's my fault since I point out these glaring disparities, but as you can can clearly read above others more grounded in reality like myself see through your boosterism which demonstrates a severe disconnect with the reality on the ground in Ohio's cities such as Cincinnati.

And as expected, you didn't blame that 72% of city voters who chose not to vote and left Cininnati in a position where any progress for pro-urban policies is likely going to face severe opposition from the mayor just like city voters let Kasich hold sway over the fate of Ohio's cities by choosing not to vote. If you take a look at the cities Mr. Simes listed I wouldn't be surprised to see higher participation rates in getting progressive policies to come to fruition and vote in greater numbers, which is why you see progressive pro-urban policies in cities within these states along with other indicators of an engaged liberal urban voting constituency in the form of legalized same-sex marriage or legalized marijuana laws in contrast to Ohio, which should come as no surprise that it currently lacks in either of those too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Ohio > Cincinnati
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top