Is Cincinnati really dangerous? No. (Avon, Perry: mover, unemployed, income)

[Wilson513]

In Portland, the poster child for urban rail, the taxpayers subsidize every ride by about $20. I am sure that a lot of folks would be lining up to pay $20 to take the toy trolley from the Slave Center to McMicken and Central Parkway.

[neilworms2]

Wilson: Language like "Slave Center", "toy trolley", "Choo-Choo" train etc, does absolutely nothing to help your cause. It shows your side of the debate as unintelligent and prone to demagoguery. Even if there is a smarter argument there, please refrain from using this kind of rhetoric.

Its seriously what is tearing this country apart. I have a few libertarian views believe it or not, but cannot stand at all by a right wing that supports such childish bs.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by neilworms2

Wilson: Language like "Slave Center", "toy trolley", "Choo-Choo" train etc, does absolutely nothing to help your cause. It shows your side of the debate as unintelligent and prone to demagoguery. Even if there is a smarter argument there, please refrain from using this kind of rhetoric.

Its seriously what is tearing this country apart. I have a few libertarian views believe it or not, but cannot stand at all by a right wing that supports such childish bs.

I agree that there is a lot in the choice of words. My comments are addressed to the mindless followers of a childlike Mayor who is leading a small majority of selfish and self centered councilpersons. The proponents of the Toy Trolley are impervious to facts, clinging to a vision of transformation by an amusement park ride. Under the circumstances, I think my choice of words works just fine. If it sounds like my comments are directed to an ill behaved 12 year old, that is essentially correct.

A word on the Slave Center, however. When the "Freedom Center" concept was sold to the City, it was billed as the National Underground Railroad center. Certainly a unifying and laudatory objective. After all, it was white Americans who risked their lives and freedom to free slaves in a world that generally accpeted slavery as a fact of life. The reality, however, is the hateful and divisive Slave Center, where thousands of school children are dragged out of school and taken down there to remember one thing: a slave pen as the only substantial exhibit. A slave pen. Forget for a moment that the average 1850's white share cropper or mine or factory worker did not live under much more favorable conditions. That reality is somehow absent there. I am surprised that they don't put a hanging tree with a noose in the lobby. I suppose that will be next.

I'm pretty comfortable referring the it as the Slave Center. They made it that way, I just put words to it.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by neilworms2

Wilson: Language like "Slave Center", "toy trolley", "Choo-Choo" train etc, does absolutely nothing to help your cause. It shows your side of the debate as unintelligent and prone to demagoguery. Even if there is a smarter argument there, please refrain from using this kind of rhetoric.

Its seriously what is tearing this country apart....

I had a brain wave as I was listening to the sermon at church yesterday (oh, wait...wrong thread.:-)

I realized that I can do absolutely nothing to control other people's enthusiastic participation in all the anger, discourtesy, rhetoric, and personal attacks that are now a relentless drumbeat in our political and civic discourse. I agree that it's out of hand, and does nothing to encourage cooperation or to eventually solve any problems. Frankly, I think a lot of people have become addicted to it. Notice that Wilson has lost no time explaining to you why it's justified and effective--at least in his view.

What I realized I can do is to stop reacting in anger myself. I've already had a few chances to try it, and y'know what? It feels pretty good.

[neilworms2]

Wilson: I appreciate you acknowledging the ability of rhetoric to color conversations, but I think that the terms you are using and the opinions are largely colored by perceptions of Cincinnati local media.

Its really amazing, I never checked out the "Freedom Center" when I lived in Cincinnati because of largely bad reviews of how the place was poorly planned and over budget. Yet oddly when I moved and would talk to various people about being from the Cincinnati area, I actually got a few comments from people where the first thing they mentioned was the "Freedom Center". They recommended it and considered it a highlight of their time spent down there!

It makes me actually want to consider going there just to see it for myself. I don't know if you have as well, but I think this and the terms about toy trolley are fabrications by local media to color things a certain way that make them uneasy. Cincinnati is notorious for strained racial relations, and is known for being very anti transit and this view is reinforced by a myopic local media that throws around scary/catchy (meme) terms without digging a bit deeper.

Digging a bit deeper, yes Portland is expensive to live in. It has an increadibly anti-business climate, but at the same time its attracting more people to live there than there are jobs to support those people. I actually was on vacation to the Pacific Northwest and actually got to see the Perl district. It was vibrant, expensive and well populated. What was the catalyst for the redevelopment? The streetcar was, it actually increased property values and allowed for derlict industrial lands to become one of the hotest areas in the city.

In terms of Cincinnati, you have the hulking remains of a beautiful old neighborhood that could rival the French quarter in terms of heritage tourism. At the same time you have the beginnings of reinvestment in that neighborhood. I think OTR is such a treasure for Cincinnati and a tremendous asset to the city as its revitalization will bring cultural cred to the city as well as a reputation for historic architecture that could put Cincy in about the same league as New Orleans, Savannah or Charleston. As a result I'm for the streetcar as it will promote increased investment in the core of the city much like how it did it in Portland. Cincinnati will never be as anti-business or as expensive as Portland is, the culture is vastly different, but at the very least this will allow a treasure of a neighborhood a chance of a lifetime a chance to finally come back and relive a bit of its former glory. It will help Cincinnati come back to its former potential. Its not a waste of money so much as an investment - something to promote investment in the city.

I think its a lot more immature to call the opposing arguments to a belief immature without looking deeper at the argument than it is to consider the opposing arguments (yes it is costly and yes it is a risk). The questions that should be asked are is it a risk worth taking? Instead of is this something that is a "cult like charade"? I am in no way calling you names for this. In fact in a lot of other places I would consider this wasteful. Dayton doesn't need a streetcar, there is no equivalent to OTR in Dayton, it wouldn't be anywhere near the level of Cincinnati if its core asset were to be revitalized.

[Wilson513]

Probably the most undesirable outcome of Cincinnati's OTR would be anything like the French Quarter of NO. A fitly crowded place rampant with crime and seedy residents and visitors. Like the City politians many see the presence of bars as good sign. They are not. What OTR needs is people and families with houses and dogs and kidsnin school. Take NO and shove it down the toilet where it belongs.

[Chemistry_Guy]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Probably the most undesirable outcome of Cincinnati's OTR would be anything like the French Quarter of NO. A fitly crowded place rampant with crime and seedy residents and visitors. Like the City politians many see the presence of bars as good sign. They are not. What OTR needs is people and families with houses and dogs and kidsnin school. Take NO and shove it down the toilet where it belongs.

That may be a longer term goal, but right now OTR needs a lot of work. Families with kids and pets rarely have the time and energy to renovate/restore the big old buildings that OTR is famous for. In the immediate future, I would guess that the demographics most likely to invest in and improve the area are younger couples without kids, single professionals, and empty nesters. The big challenge is to get the younger people to stay once they have kids. I

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy

That may be a longer term goal, but right now OTR needs a lot of work. Families with kids and pets rarely have the time and energy to renovate/restore the big old buildings that OTR is famous for. In the immediate future, I would guess that the demographics most likely to invest in and improve the area are younger couples without kids, single professionals, and empty nesters. The big challenge is to get the younger people to stay once they have kids. I

Yep. With no value judgment expressed or implied, when I worked in downtown revitalization it was a given that gay couples were THE demographic to go after if you wanted people for the heavy lifting of residential rehab in a deterioriated area. Gay men were an especially desirable group given that men's incomes were (and still are) higher on average than women's. Fifteen years ago when I was doing that work it was more uncommon than now for gay couples to have kids, too. I would guess that they're still somewhat less likely to have them than the hetero couples who are young enough and affluent enough to take on the work and expense of extensive renovations.

[crank_it_up]

Wait till gas hits $5.00 and $6.00/gallon, downtown will suddenly become a lot more desirable.

As for mass transit, I still can't understand the advantage of paying triple (or more) for a bus on rails verses rubber tires... go figure. Not to mention the cost of converting an existing lane of roadway into a light rail lane. If they used a bus they would only need some paint for the conversion. But alas, I guess that is not as glamorous as light rail, nor as many opportunities for those in power to get their wheels greased so to speak

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by crank_it_up

Wait till gas hits $5.00 and $6.00/gallon, downtown will suddenly become a lot more desirable.

As for mass transit, I still can't understand the advantage of paying triple (or more) for a bus on rails verses rubber tires... go figure. Not to mention the cost of converting an existing lane of roadway into a light rail lane. If they used a bus they would only need some paint for the conversion. But alas, I guess that is not as glamorous as light rail, nor as many opportunities for those in power to get their wheels greased so to speak

That glamor issue is one that really concerns me, and underlies the joke about the bullet-proof glass on the streetcars. I believe one of the theories about success of the streetcar projects that it'll attract a lot of younger riders from the professional class--the individuals who now by and large perceive riding the bus to be low-class, uncool, only for poor people. Why would these people's attitudes change once the streetcars become populated with the same people they don't want to rub elbows with on the existing buses?