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The ridership hit like 80 to 90% of the original projections. But yes, the projections were off. Of course, as time goes on and more developments pop up (like Kroger tower) it will end up meeting and exceeding the projections, so the point will be moot in 2024 or earlier. There are several easy and cheap fixes the current mayor refuses to do like fixing the kiosks, signal priority, larger fines for cars that block the streetcar, protected lanes in some spots for it, running more cars, not running in on Christmas, running it during opening day parade and so on. Most of these simple fixes and there's good a chance it hits the original projections.
Ridership is not the only thing that measure it's success. It's in the black and generating millions of dollars in development. See previous posts with articles to show this as being fact from WCPO, WVXU and the Biz Courier.
I personally have rarely seen "vagrants" at any stops, but lets be honest people who live in the suburbs are often afraid of the city anyways. A simple "no" to an addict or whatever is all it takes. I know people who are still afraid of going to Washington Park, so some peoples minds will just never change, let them enjoy the West Chester Applebee's. The bottom line is along the route there's tons of development, even now North of Liberty. But walk up Vine Street north of Liberty or take one the Underground Brewery Tours you'll see how one block or 2 blocks off the route it gets sketchy real fast. Streetcar=development. We've seen this with previous articles posted from multiple sources. Lots of quotes from small biz owners up and down the route stating since the streetcar has opened their sales have gone up. Also quote from GE and CEO of Kroger stating their support for the streetcar. The Chamber of Commerce also supports the streetcar because of the development.
Again, the numbers as posted in previous numerous news articles show the streetcar is in the black and generating millions of dollars in development. So, in my eyes that's a success.
As far as larger system, absolutely would be amazing and hopefully one day we'll be there. This streetcar was originally planned to go uptown to UC but Kasich cut that money. MetroMoves plan taught us that Rome wasn't built in a day. Especially in Cincinnati, a liberal city surrounded by conservative suburbs (much like Louisville and most cities). I can't imagine a train running between say downtown Louisville to Bowling Green or even E-Town being supported by the folks in Bullit County. Link to MetroMoves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetroMoves
You're absolutely right, we can do better and hopefully we'll get a more transit friendly council and mayor next week. But rail expansion whether big like you're talking about or a simple streetcar expansion uptown isn't happening in the next 4 years.
Excellent post. The cars that block the streetcars are unnerving! And the maps/kiosks need help. The average Joe local has no clue about the streetcar. I’d like to see more extended hours and coordinated events such as “StreetcarUvia” That’s a day where streetcar streets don’t allow cars. Here in Louisville we have Cyclouvia which is where a major urban road is closed to cars.It brings great awareness to the urban form.
The Connector is an expensive ride. Nothing more. We would have done better with a Ferris Wheel, but we have what we have and need to make the best of it.The numbers are buoyed by events in OTR and that is just fine. Less money that has to be looted from the Haile Foundation. But, let's not get silly about it and talk of repeating this mistake.
Small loop streetcar lines are much better suited to smaller tourist cities...think New Orleans, and more regionally, Louisville (they should build a small streetcar line like the one in Cincy as they could never support light rail).
New Orleans does not have a streetcar "loop". It has three lines that travel in the medians (or "neutral ground") of three separate major arterial roads. These three lines are used by a mixture of locals and tourists. There is a fourth streetcar line along the river which is tourist-only. The fourth line parallels freight tracks and does not travel in the center of an established street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948
Cincinnati is set up as a major metro that spreads out 20 miles from downtown, and I think if they wanted to help move people and give an alternative to 71/75 which is a mess, light rail would be the way top go, and it would help to continue to rejuvenate some very forgotten areas...as a basic example, imagine how Camp Washington would pop with a light rail line stop off MLK? Cincinnati had a chance to set itself up as a mini Boston....those of us who have lived or moved away in Cincinnati can and do have good insight into this, so don't take it so personally! Cincinnati would support light rail...why are Sunbelt cities opening this stuff and Cincy is not? Orlando is a comparable size to Cincinnati and look what they built in the last 5 years...like Cincy, their metro sprawls north south along a major freeway corridor:
Pretty much every city that has a newer light rail system voted to tax itself to build it. The Cincinnati Streetcar was a tiny project that did not require a tax hike. It was built by and is operated by the City of Cincinnati, not SORTA, not Hamilton County, not Ohio. As has been mentioned repeatedly, it is consuming just .2% of the city's budget. A countywide rail system would not be owned or operated by the city but rather the regional transit authority, SORTA. A regional rail system involving multiple Ohio counties and crossing to Kentucky would require formation of a new agency. The light rail system in St. Louis was able to be extended easily to Illinois because a bi-state agency legislated by Congress created one back in the 1940s. Ohio and Kentucky would have to get on the same page in order to lobby Congress to create an agency that could levy its own tax and administer construction and operation of a system.
New Orleans does not have a streetcar "loop". It has three lines that travel in the medians (or "neutral ground") of three separate major arterial roads. These three lines are used by a mixture of locals and tourists. There is a fourth streetcar line along the river which is tourist-only. The fourth line parallels freight tracks and does not travel in the center of an established street.
Pretty much every city that has a newer light rail system voted to tax itself to build it. The Cincinnati Streetcar was a tiny project that did not require a tax hike. It was built by and is operated by the City of Cincinnati, not SORTA, not Hamilton County, not Ohio. As has been mentioned repeatedly, it is consuming just .2% of the city's budget. A countywide rail system would not be owned or operated by the city but rather the regional transit authority, SORTA. A regional rail system involving multiple Ohio counties and crossing to Kentucky would require formation of a new agency. The light rail system in St. Louis was able to be extended easily to Illinois because a bi-state agency legislated by Congress created one back in the 1940s. Ohio and Kentucky would have to get on the same page in order to lobby Congress to create an agency that could levy its own tax and administer construction and operation of a system.
Loop was written as a euphemism. The point is, NO does not have a major transit system. A few miles of streetcar is NOT a mass transit system.
Cincinnati would benefit from rail like Orlando, Charlotte, or many other similar sized metros. The personal attacks of people here making constructive criticism show why many people truly dislike Cincinnati. It's slow population growth shows it. People vote with their bodies.
The city of Cincinnati I love, particularly the renaissance in OTR, and unique neighborhoods like Mt Adams which has been great for decades. What I don't like is closed minded, insular Cincinnatians. That speaks volumes about the city. Since this thread is about the streetcar, I argue the city could have spent the money almost anywhere else and it would have been better for the city.
Peter, we just talked about it. The money for the streetcar could not have been used for anything else but the streetcar, at least initially and now the system is generating millions of dollars in development. The city is growing and has been for a few years showing people like living here after decades of white flight. This thread shows there are a handful of anti-Cincinnati folks complaining about what we're doing. Cincinnati is a wonderful, welcoming city. It shows that in city population growth and growth in tourism. Cincinnati's growth is not absurd but compared to peer cities like Cleveland, Toledo, Pittsburgh, St Louis we're doing great. We can't really compare to Louisville since before the merger old Louisville had been also losing populations for decades, I'd love to know if old Louisville is growing. There's a lot of great things going on there. I was down there twice this year for Dirty River Derby between FCC and LCFC.
Cincinnati is on the move, I'm glad you like it, but a handful of posters on here do not. We feel obligated to defend our city against attacks posted by some posters. As everyone should do for their city. Go read r/Cincinnati everyday you'll see lots of great posts from visitors saying how great Cincinnati is. The backwards insular talk about Cincinnati while historically true is now just as outdated as saying Cincinnati is a conservative town. Things are changing fast here and some people don't like it and the streetcar is the perfect scapegoat for old Cincinnati vs New Cincinnati or Baby Boomer Cincy vs Millennial Cincy.
There was a day in this country when some people thought a "Mine Shaft gap" existed between the USA and Russia. We've now reached a point where some people think a "Street Car gap" exists between Cincinnati and some other cities that have a more extensive network of Trolley's. Just because it may work in some cities with greater population densities and also specific districts that can attract enough riders to make it somewhat feasible from a fiscal stand point, it still does not mean additional lines should be added here.
KC has more of a tourist industry than Cincinnati. They run it to the Power and Light District directly through the downtown area and also the north edge of downtown which has a lot of apartment and condo Dwellers. Though there is little doubt the Cincinnati area is developing a tourist trade, that doesn't mean a Street Car is going to succeed. .
Again, just because rail can work in some parts of the country doesn't mean it is viable here. One size does not fit all.
BTW. Local money for the project could have been better spent. Federal money could not be redirected since the terms of the agreement for the use of it were solely for the Street Car.
I am dumbfounded by the statements from people that attack those of us that believe this thing is a waste of time, effort, money and space. Using 19th century technology in mass transit is hardly a sign of progress. And turning it into a political issue and injecting class warfare and ageism is disgraceful. There was a guy from NYC by the name of Tom Jones III that stopped posting to this board because of the hostility he encountered. Continuing to tell the rest of the world that people hate Cincinnati because we don't believe the Street Car is a wise form of mass transit for the city is not only a misrepresentation of the facts but also serves to discourage people from wanting to believe the area is open minded.
Would it make some of you feel better if I sold my home and moved to another part of the country? :-)
Last edited by WILWRadio; 11-03-2017 at 05:44 AM..
No one outside of Cincinnati cares about the Connector. Its a ride. They like it when they are here for a visit. Who wouldn't. Like a roller coaster or a hay ride. Somewhere in between.
It relates to Cincinnati no more than the Eden Park Overlook. Only it cost about a million times as much.
As long as people are entertained, the disgraceful waste and lost opportunities for the 200 million dollars will not be a big deal. People who have adopted the Connector as a symbol of transportation progress are morons. It can't be put any other way.
Again, just because rail can work in some parts of the country doesn't mean it is viable here. One size does not fit all.
Amazing how all of these cities that are lower-density than Cincinnati are now building big rail systems. Nashville's mayor is backing a $5 billion rail plan that includes a 1.8-mile subway tunnel under their downtown. She was joined at the press conference with 3 previous mayors. They're going to raise the county sales tax to 10.25% to build it.
The exact same system would carry many more passengers in Cincinnati because we are a real walkable city with real neighborhood business districts. Cincinnati's streets are narrow and the lots were platted at 25 feet so there is not a lot of space wasted in between buildings. Nashville has barely anything walkable outside of its strictly defined downtown. Nashville is using local money to get federal money. We're going to pay for Nashville's subway through our federal taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio
BTW. Local money for the project could have been better spent.
On what? Parking garages? Make specific suggestions. Doesn't it make more sense for a city to spend its local money on projects that can win state and federal grants? Like $1 local dollar gets $1 federal dollar? Will the parking garages you dream of win federal FTA grants? Cranley wasted the last Obama-era TIGER grant on a new viaduct connecting South Cumminsville and Central Parkway. It didn't win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio
Using 19th century technology in mass transit is hardly a sign of progress.
Cars were invented in the 1800s, as were bicycles. Commercial aviation is now 100 years old.
Peter, we just talked about it. The money for the streetcar could not have been used for anything else but the streetcar, at least initially and now the system is generating millions of dollars in development. The city is growing and has been for a few years showing people like living here after decades of white flight. This thread shows there are a handful of anti-Cincinnati folks complaining about what we're doing. Cincinnati is a wonderful, welcoming city. It shows that in city population growth and growth in tourism. Cincinnati's growth is not absurd but compared to peer cities like Cleveland, Toledo, Pittsburgh, St Louis we're doing great. We can't really compare to Louisville since before the merger old Louisville had been also losing populations for decades, I'd love to know if old Louisville is growing. There's a lot of great things going on there. I was down there twice this year for Dirty River Derby between FCC and LCFC.
Cincinnati is on the move, I'm glad you like it, but a handful of posters on here do not. We feel obligated to defend our city against attacks posted by some posters. As everyone should do for their city. Go read r/Cincinnati everyday you'll see lots of great posts from visitors saying how great Cincinnati is. The backwards insular talk about Cincinnati while historically true is now just as outdated as saying Cincinnati is a conservative town. Things are changing fast here and some people don't like it and the streetcar is the perfect scapegoat for old Cincinnati vs New Cincinnati or Baby Boomer Cincy vs Millennial Cincy.
Ok I know this is OT but even liberals in Cincinnati are liberal by middle America standards and that's it.
And I think old and young Cincinnatians are both insular and welcoming. You can absolutely be both, you're just selective in WHO to extend either to. This I notice is just part of Ohio period but I can only speak surely for Cincinnati. As Cincinnati people are provincial by nature (the history and terrain only makes sense that things are this way), if a Cincinnatian perceives you as like them, they are welcoming. If not, they are insular. This is why in certain threads you have such conflicting ideas as to whether Cincinnati people are welcoming or not. They're just selective in who they welcome but once you're in their group, they treat you as such. If they don't then the will always perceive you as an outsider.
Wellllllllll After days of only one folly in service. Folly system shut down
Hey, the homeless need someplace to warm up and pee
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