Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I haven't been to OKC, but it seems like it and SLC should switch places. SLC has enough going to have a good amount of international flights and an airline hub (which OKC has neither).
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joakim3
By that logic Philly should be a 2BB city to NYC
I can’t speak on SF/Oaklands relation with SJ but Baltimore & DC (and their metros) functional more or less entirely independent of each other and have since the inception of the MSA designation. They are functionally, culturally and economically different regions and should be treated as such.
As core cities yes. That doesn't account for spill over though where metro lines blur, nor does it mean Washington-Baltimore don't associate as a greater mega-region, because due to proximity they do. You can have two independent functions of a city core, or metro that have different economic bases, and still be compared to other mega-regions of similar size that appear more single function. So on a macro scale the mere fact that the Bay Area and Washington-Baltimore are often aligned by comparison is not egregious at all. There's also certain industries like life sciences that tie Washington and Baltimore into the same "market". Probably for the sake of just not breaking it up.
Hardly comparable to the relationship between Philadelphia (a 6+ million metro of it's own), with NYC.
As core cities yes. That doesn't account for spill over though where metro lines blur, nor does it mean Washington-Baltimore don't associate as a greater mega-region, because due to proximity they do. You can have two independent functions of a city core, or metro that have different economic bases, and still be compared to other mega-regions of similar size that appear more single function. So on a macro scale the mere fact that the Bay Area and Washington-Baltimore are often aligned by comparison is not egregious at all. There's also certain industries like life sciences that tie Washington and Baltimore into the same "market". Probably for the sake of just not breaking it up.
Yes, DC-Baltimore have overlapping media & labor markets but nowhere near enough that one supersedes the others region which is the whole point of this ranking. There different regions and don't play "second fiddle" to the other despite the proximity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09
Hardly comparable to the relationship between Philadelphia (a 6+ million metro of it's own), with NYC.
Philly & NYC’s UA and MSA’s physically touch the same way Baltimore & DC’s do with the associating overlap and technically meet the requirement to form a CSA… so yes, you could absolutely make comparisons in their relationship.
Philly is smaller than Baltimore relative to NYC than Baltimore is to DC so that doesn't help your argument either.
Pittsburgh tier of cities
Charlotte, Austin, Portland, Tampa, Orlando, St Louis, Las Vegas, Oakland
Pittsburgh is somewhere in this group, I'd slide it between Orlando and St Louis...
Cleveland tier of cities
Nashville, Cincinnati, San Antonio, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Sacramento, San Jose, Columbus, Fort Worth, Newark
Cleveland is somewhere in this group, I'd probably have it between Columbus and Fort Worth...
Be honest, this is kind of nonsense, isn't it? It almost looks like you took these cities and flipped a coin for each one and assigned them to a group based on the results. Why are Tampa and Kansas City on different tiers? Portland and Nashville? Cleveland and Oakland? What is the basis for any of this?
I don't disagree with your characterization of Baltimore vis-a-vis DC. Until the Federal government exploded in size after World War II, moreover, the economic importance of the two cities was reversed from what it is now.
The reason Philadelphia doesn't fall into a "2-BB" bucket is because it and New York have been rivals more than big/little brothers or core/satellite for most of their existence, and even though New York began to eclipse Philadelphia around 1800, the city remained an epicenter of several activities and fields and still remains one now.* On that score, I would say that the person who objected to San Jose's placement in this category does have a point, given its status as a tech epicenter, but I suspect Rand McNally does give more weight to finance and government than many of us might, especially given where it put those smaller capital cities of large states.
*And in contrast, I'm not sure what I can call Baltimore an epicenter of now other than shipping. It certainly had a bigger heavy industrial presence than Philadelphia, whose claim to fame in the industrial era was its dazzling array of small manufacturing enterprises, but industry has been depreciated in this country (and wrongly so, one could argue). It's that heavy-industrial character, btw, that IMO makes Baltimore a very poor fit as a "Southern" city (and by extension Maryland not all that "Southern" a state).
Edited to add: Physical distance may also come into play here. All of those cities in category 2-BB are 50 miles or less away from the other nearby large city. Absent traffic, you could drive between all of the pairs within an hour. By contrast, Philadelphia and New York are about twice that distance apart; they meet simply because their hinterlands have grown so large.
The challenge that I always have with San Jose is that its suburbs are more important than the core city (specifically the areas with the tech companies like Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Menlo Park, etc). And then those suburbs are in practice suburbs of San Francisco as much or more than they are suburbs of San Jose. So I think looking at "San Jose" as an MSA vastly overstates its importance. In this respect it's most similar to Fort Worth, though the latter does not get its own MSA for whatever reason.
That said, even if you remove these suburbs and look at the city proper of San Jose it is still far, far, more important than Albany. So overall I agree with the complaint.
I don't think DC/Baltimore is the same dynamic at all. Those are two completely separate metros and cities that happen to be located close together and have the tiniest bit of suburban overlap.
I don't think DC/Baltimore is the same dynamic at all. Those are two completely separate metros and cities that happen to be located close together and have the tiniest bit of suburban overlap.
Tiniest is quite an understatement here, given that there are two MARC commuter rail lines that go directly from DC to Baltimore. Columbia, MD has commuter buses that go between the two cities. In that corridor between US 29 and MD 295, and arguably further out into Anne Arundel County as far as MD Route 2, there is certainly overlap between the two markets like in the central portion of a Venn Diagram. Suburban overlap is tinier in places such as the Chicago/Milwaukee overlap zone, as well as Central Jersey. If anything, Columbia is more DC-dependent now than in the 1970s/80s when it was home to the second largest General Electric appliance manufacturing plant, next to Louisville's, where most of the commuters came from Baltimore County. Much of that two-square mile parcel (seen from I-95 between exits 38 and 41) is now populated by white-collar offices, including some for DC government contractors such as Leidos, a UMBC research building, and some big box stores. There are many more of these office parks with a lot of DC ties in northwestern Anne Arundel County between the NSA and BWI Airport, as well.
Tiniest is quite an understatement here, given that there are two MARC commuter rail lines that go directly from DC to Baltimore. Columbia, MD has commuter buses that go between the two cities. In that corridor between US 29 and MD 295, and arguably further out into Anne Arundel County as far as MD Route 2, there is certainly overlap between the two markets like in the central portion of a Venn Diagram. Suburban overlap is tinier in places such as the Chicago/Milwaukee overlap zone, as well as Central Jersey.
The are interconnected in infrastructure simply off of geographic =/= commuting patterns, politics, cultural ties or economic industries
Their overlap is 32 & 198 corridor... but we are talking about 3 & 6 million MSA's.. not towns of a few 100k. It is tiny relative to the size of DC & Baltimore regions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borntoolate85
If anything, Columbia is more DC-dependent now than in the 1970s/80s when it was home to the second largest General Electric appliance manufacturing plant, next to Louisville's, where most of the commuters came from Baltimore County. Much of that two-square mile parcel (seen from I-95 between exits 38 and 41) is now populated by white-collar offices, including some for DC government contractors such as Leidos, a UMBC research building, and some big box stores. There are many more of these office parks with a lot of DC ties in northwestern Anne Arundel County between the NSA and BWI Airport, as well.
It's not DC dependent.
The vast majority commuters still come from the Baltimore area not DC and the ones that come from "DC" are from Montgomery, not the district itself. It’s been like that for the last 5 decades. Idk where this mantra keeps on getting spread as if the Baltimore metro doesn’t have its own independent white collar labor force.
Yes, DC-Baltimore have overlapping media & labor markets but nowhere near enough that one supersedes the others region which is the whole point of this ranking. There different regions and don't play "second fiddle" to the other despite the proximity.
Philly & NYC’s UA and MSA’s physically touch the same way Baltimore & DC’s do with the associating overlap and technically meet the requirement to form a CSA… so yes, you could absolutely make comparisons in their relationship.
Philly is smaller than Baltimore relative to NYC than Baltimore is to DC so that doesn't help your argument either.
Actually, I think the population difference between Metro New York and Metro Philadelphia (6.2m vs. 19.7m: 3.2x) is not that much larger than that between Metro Baltimore and Metro Washington (2.8m vs. 6.3m: 2.25x).
And there is one difference, maybe one artificially maintained by the OMB: Philadelphia and New York are separate CSAs while Washington and Baltimore form one. In Philadelphia's orbit are Reading, Lancaster, Atlantic City and Ocean City; in New York's, East Stroudsburg, Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Torrington, Bridgeport-Stamford, New Haven, and Trenton. The last of those MSAs, however, is in the Philadelphia media market.
The fact that Baltimore and Washington are also separate media markets does distinguish Baltimore from all the other "2-BB" cities, which does lend credence to the argument that it definitely doesn't belong in that tier.
The interesting thing is: ISTR that Cleveland had more residents at its peak than Pittsburgh did at its peak, and both have lost about half of their peak populations.
Back then, I would have placed both on the same tier. But Pittsburgh has reinvented itself more than Cleveland has (sorry, Case Western Reserve University).
By what measure(s)?
Population? Pittsburgh has pretty much evened out (-3,000 last census) and Cleveland lost about 24,000, but I'm skeptical about those losses for Cleveland. Blacks and Latino/Hispanics are historically undercounted; Cleveland is somewhere between 62 percent black or Hispanic. Whites and Asians were the most overcounted, and Cleveland is only about 37 percent white or Asian. Pittsburgh, conversely, is about 70 percent white/Asian and 27 percent black/Latino.
County level, kind of the same. Allegheny gained about 27,000 people. Allegheny is 80 percent white/asian and 16 percent black/Hispanic. Cuyahoga lost 16,000. It is 62 percent white/Asian and 35 percent black/Hispanic.
You get to the metro level and both were about identical. Pittsburgh gained 14,000 and Cleveland gained 11,000.
Jobs? Both are still recovering, but Cleveland metro is 35,000 over its average from 10 years ago; Pittsburgh is 13,200 below. Cleveland is also closer than Pittsburgh to reaching its pre-pandemic levels.
GDP? Pittsburgh MSA has gained about 12 percent in GDP over the past 10 years; Cleveland 11 percent.
Income? Pittsburgh MSA has grown by 23.4 percent over the past 10 years; Cleveland by 23.1 percent.
And Cleveland is doing just fine in reinventing itself as a meds center. Newsweek just released its top 250 hospitals in the world and Cleveland (all three located in the city) had three ranked. Cleveland Clinic (2), University Hospital (143), Fairview Hospital (201). The only city/metros to have more are LA (5) and Boston (4). The others with three, along with Cleveland, are Chicago and New York.
The Cleveland Clinic has also regained its status as Ohio's No. 1 employer at 57,000 and University Hospital is No. 7 with 31,000, with most of those employees being located in the Cleveland MSA (or regionally, Akron/Canton). Even for research, while Pitt/Carnegie Mellon are top 50ish, the Cleveland Clinic and Case aren't too far behind, and both are top 100ish (people overlook the amount of research the Clinic does because it isn't tied directly into a specific university).
I guess I'll be labeled "sensitive" because you know who wants to actually look at numbers. This site has a bunch of posters who want to constantly knock Cleveland then throw in back-handed compliments like "but I was there one time and liked it," or add passive-aggressive remarks like being "sensitive." Some people will also flat out ignore the parts of Pittsburgh that are struggling and are anything but "easy on the eyes" because they are located outside of Pittsburgh's 55 square mile city limits. ... there are 30-40 square miles in the Mon-Valley that give some of the rougher neighborhoods inside the city of Cleveland a run for their money in terms of still being depressed.
Overall, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are in the same class, and both are reinventing themselves quite well all things considered (Pittsburgh was ahead 20 years ago, but that gap has closed the past decade). They are in the same class, whatever one you want to put them in.
Where Cleveland (like I put in the Midwest City Tier thread) would jump ahead is whether you include Akron (and to a smaller degree Canton) into the broader region. They've always been in the same media market and it's another 1.1 million people (700k in bordering Summit/Portage) and 400K (Stark) that if added along with Cleveland would still fit inside the size of the Pittsburgh MSA. The Cleveland-Akron-Canton corridor is much larger than SW Pa., and that's not even a debate. Whether Akron (or Canton) should be lumped in together with Cleveland as part of a broader region is up for debate, and one that I believe I have a pretty good feel for considering I've lived in the "Akron area" for over a decade now and worked in Stark County for several years as well.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
