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Then why is it constantly voted as the third largest downtown in the nation? Center City runs from Spring Garden St to the North (Sometimes Vine Street depending on who you talk to) to South Street to the South. The Delaware River to the east to the Schuylkill River to the West. A lot of people include University City in with Center City as well now.
Then why is it constantly voted as the third largest downtown in the nation? Center City runs from Spring Garden St to the North (Sometimes Vine Street depending on who you talk to) to South Street to the South. The Delaware River to the east to the Schuylkill River to the West. A lot of people include University City in with Center City as well now.
It gets voted the third most populous, not the third largest. Huge Difference! If someone builds 8 different towers at 2,000 feet each of residential units, that would be a lot of people but would not cover a large area. When you build up, it provides less space to use at street level for restaurants, dance clubs, bars, shopping etc. etc. etc. There are positives and negatives in space to expand and lack of space to expand. That is the reason I'm so excited at what is happening in D.C. right now. Downtown D.C. is connecting to 3 different major waterfronts too which will each be a destination. The height restrictions in D.C. are the only reason D.C. is able to fill in like it is doing. It's going to create consistent vibrancy across an area that is larger than every city not named NYC.
Center City will always have more people in the tiny area that makes up center city compared to D.C. because of height limits and may be more vibrant in that small area, but D.C. will have core vibrancy over an area 6 times the size of center city. Imagine if there was a center city north, center city south, center city west, center city east, and center city central. That is the difference I'm talking about. D.C. is infilling at an unprecedented rate all in the core which is a huge area.
When it comes to vibrancy, there is a limit or threshold that is reached where the enhancement to an area from people walking on the streets hits a ceiling. Once that point is reached, there is no benefit from adding more people to the street. It's vibrant enough basically. Adding people won't make the area better at that point. D.C. will reach this threshold across the entire core soon and even though center city will continue to grow in population by adding more people in it's small area, it will not enhance itself unless it adds land. Center City is already vibrant enough. Adding more people is not going to change it. It needs to double, triple, or quadruple in land size to really be different. It's just too small and the river and row houses that surround it actually create a huge barrier. D.C. just has more land to redevelop. Center City being surrounded by established row house neighborhoods hurts it's potential greatly to ever be a residential high rise behemoth that exists in the greatest cities in the world. Imagine if neighborhoods the size of Rittenhouse Square went on for miles and miles in Philly. What a sight that would be!
Last edited by MDAllstar; 03-07-2012 at 11:59 AM..
It gets voted the third most populous, not the third largest. Huge Difference! If someone builds 8 different towers at 2,000 feet each of residential units, that would be a lot of people but would not cover a large area. When you build up, it provides less space to use at street level for restaurants, dance clubs, bars, shopping etc. etc. etc. There are positives and negatives in space to expand and lack of space to expand. That is the reason I'm so excited at what is happening in D.C. right now. Downtown D.C. is connecting to 3 different major waterfronts too which will each be a destination. The height restrictions in D.C. are the only reason D.C. is able to fill in like it is doing. It's going to create consistent vibrancy across an area that is larger than every city not named NYC.
Center City will always have more people in the tiny area that makes up center city compared to D.C. because of height limits and may be more vibrant in that small area, but D.C. will have core vibrancy over an area 6 times the size of center city. Imagine if there was a center city north, center city south, center city west, center city east, and center city central. That is the difference I'm talking about. D.C. is infilling at an unprecedented rate all in the core which is a huge area.
When it comes to vibrancy, there is a limit or threshold that is reached where the enhancement to an area from people walking on the streets hits a ceiling. Once that point is reached, there is no benefit from adding more people to the street. It's vibrant enough basically. Adding people won't make the area better at that point. D.C. will reach this threshold across the entire core soon and even though center city will continue to grow in population by adding more people in it's small area, it will not enhance itself unless it adds land. It's just too small and the river and row houses that surround it actually create a huge barrier. D.C. just has more land to redevelop. Center City being surrounded by established row house neighborhoods hurts it's potential greatly to ever be a residential high rise behemoth that exists in the greatest cities in the world.
Not true, the Highrises are expanding North into North Philadelphia where the old factories and manufacturing plants are leaving plenty of room for highrises. They are also expanding west into University City which is becoming an extension of Center City. There are also plans to build highrises all along the Delaware Waterfront. Philadelphia also has very vibrant areas within those rowhome neighborhoods like East Passyunk Square and the Italian Market in South Philadelphia, Northern Liberties and Templetown (Which is also starting to build highrises, first 300 footer under construction as we speak) in North Philadelphia and the Northwest has some very vibrant areas like Chestnut Hill and Manayunk. Philadelphia also has plans for some midrise/lowrise downtown-like sections around the ballparks at the sports complex in south Philadelphia, the Navy Yard and the old industrial yards along the southern Schuylkill river that will be much reminiscent of DC. If you want to include all those areas in DC than we'll have to include all of those areas in Philadelphia. Fair is fair right?
It gets voted the third most populous, not the third largest. Huge Difference! If someone builds 8 different towers at 2,000 feet each of residential units, that would be a lot of people but would not cover a large area. When you build up, it provides less space to use at street level for restaurants, dance clubs, bars, shopping etc. etc. etc. There are positives and negatives in space to expand and lack of space to expand. That is the reason I'm so excited at what is happening in D.C. right now. Downtown D.C. is connecting to 3 different major waterfronts too which will each be a destination. The height restrictions in D.C. are the only reason D.C. is able to fill in like it is doing. It's going to create consistent vibrancy across an area that is larger than every city not named NYC.
Center City will always have more people in the tiny area that makes up center city compared to D.C. because of height limits and may be more vibrant in that small area, but D.C. will have core vibrancy over an area 6 times the size of center city. Imagine if there was a center city north, center city south, center city west, center city east, and center city central. That is the difference I'm talking about. D.C. is infilling at an unprecedented rate all in the core which is a huge area.
When it comes to vibrancy, there is a limit or threshold that is reached where the enhancement to an area from people walking on the streets hits a ceiling. Once that point is reached, there is no benefit from adding more people to the street. It's vibrant enough basically. Adding people won't make the area better at that point. D.C. will reach this threshold across the entire core soon and even though center city will continue to grow in population by adding more people in it's small area, it will not enhance itself unless it adds land. Center City is already vibrant enough. Adding more people is not going to change it. It needs to double, triple, or quadruple in land size to really be different. It's just too small and the river and row houses that surround it actually create a huge barrier. D.C. just has more land to redevelop. Center City being surrounded by established row house neighborhoods hurts it's potential greatly to ever be a residential high rise behemoth that exists in the greatest cities in the world. Imagine if neighborhoods the size of Rittenhouse Square went on for miles in Philly. What a sight that would be!
Actually MD this a very ill informed and myopic viewpoint IMHO
you suggest the vibrancy ends at this border or that DC attains some level, hence no greater benefit from surpassing
The commercial development in DC is larger on vibrancy a whole other story
BTW - the buildings in DC (Wow a 12 story high rise; continuous 12 story buildings as far as the eye can see; wow am so excited; Paris though does a wonderful job with this development DC is very good but not at the level of Paris or Philly FTM on the vibrancy regard) are not high rises in the first place; well not what people actually consider high rises
Rittenhouse on forever is Manhattan, DC has nothing comparable actually in this sense
Not true, the Highrises are expanding North into North Philadelphia where the old factories and manufacturing plants are leaving plenty of room for highrises. They are also expanding west into University City which is becoming an extension of Center City. There are also plans to build highrises all along the Delaware Waterfront. Philadelphia also has very vibrant areas within those rowhome neighborhoods like East Passyunk Square and the Italian Market in South Philadelphia, Northern Liberties and Templetown (Which is also starting to build highrises, first 300 footer under construction as we speak) in North Philadelphia and the Northwest has some very vibrant areas like Chestnut Hill and Manayunk. Philadelphia also has plans for some midrise/lowrise downtown-like sections around the ballparks at the sports complex in south Philadelphia, the Navy Yard and the old industrial yards along the southern Schuylkill river that will be much reminiscent of DC. If you want to include all those areas in DC than we'll have to include all of those areas in Philadelphia. Fair is fair right?
Every area I talked about actually touches in D.C. They are all together. There is no separation. You could walk to them all without having to walk through an area that can't be infilled like most area's you mentioned. One thing that is also a strength for D.C. is the fact that D.C.'s core makes more of a square which causes things to be closer. Center City and those area's don't form the same connection as D.C.'s areas. The ball parks are no where near center city's core. The area's I'm talking about are walking distance from each other with no breaks. The shape of this is the biggest advantage.
An example of what I'm talking about is the shape of Manhattan. Because Manhattan is a very thin extremely long strip, it makes Harlem extremly far from the financial district. Now imagine if it was 4 miles by 4 miles making a square. It would be a lot easier to navigate to different area's. Manhattan is built up the whole way so it still achieves a consistent build, but only Manhattan is like this. Philadelphia is not going to be built up with consistent center city level development connecting the area's you just mentioned. It can't develop that way unless you knock down millions of square feet in present low intensity development.
I never said row house neighborhoods are not vibrant. They are very vibrant but have nothing to do with a downtown. D.C. has vibrant row house neighborhoods too like Adam's Morgan etc. but that is not reminiscent of a downtown area.
Actually MD this a very ill informed and myopic viewpoint IMHO
you suggest the vibrancy ends at this border or that DC attains some level, hence no greater benefit from surpassing
The commercial development in DC is larger on vibrancy a whole other story
BTW - the buildings in DC (Wow a 12 story high rise; continuous 12 story buildings as far as the eye can see; wow am so excited; Paris though does a wonderful job with this development DC is very good but not at the level of Paris or Philly FTM on the vibrancy regard) are not high rises in the first place; well not what people actually consider high rises
Rittenhouse on forever is Manhattan, DC has nothing comparable actually in this sense
Never said D.C. had something comparable to Rittenhouse Square.
The height of a building once you get to about 8 feet is basically the same when it comes to the street interaction. In fact, zero lot development has more to do with downtown feel and street vibrancy than height once you get to about 6-8 stories. Nobody except geeks without a life walk around looking at whether a building is 10 stories or 60 stories as they walk the streets throughout a city during their life. Who even looks up? LOL.... People care about night life, attractions, restaurants, shopping etc. etc. Those are the reason's people come visit and live in downtown area's. D.C. is infilling at an unprecedented rate and it is already starting to feel like one big area. This is accomplished because D.C.'s core forms a square shape which is a huge advantage in connectivity. Cities with square or circle core's internationally have a huge advantage when it comes to connectivity and expansion. Cities with 4 mile long 1/2 mile wide strips however do not.
Maybe, you and your friends should find a dictionary and look up the definition of high rise. Then look up the definition of sky scraper. Unless you think you know more than Webster, stay in your lane.
Just so you get an idea of the shear size of the areas I am talking about and help you understand what I mean. And yes these areas will all be "connected." Obviously not the ones in the Northwest, but these areas will be
The blue is areas where dense highrise/midrise development already exists or where they are currently being developed or planned. Center City obviously in the middle with several highrises and a skyscraper already being built as well as several more planned not to mention the hundreds of skyscrapers/highrises already built. Not to mention the plans for redevelopment of the Loft District, Market East and Franklin Square with highrises. The plan for redevelopment of a 7 mile stretch of the Delaware Waterfront which will be phased and government aid is already being acquired to spur development. When completely finished this area will include highrises and midrises all down the riverfront. Highrise/midrsie redevelopment plans already occurring or planned in Callowhill and Northern Liberties in North Philadelphia as well as Franklintown and the Museum District (a lot of Highrises already here as well). There are also plans for the complete redevelopment of the North Broad Corridor with highrise and midrise development as well as Temple University's master plan which includes dense high rise and midrise development. A 312 footer is currently under construction and another 300 footer, a possible 500 footer, and a 241 footer is planned not to mention the several 200 footers and mid rises already built. (Hopefully one day the Lower Yorktown/Spring Arts neighborhoods will be redeveloped as well). Let's not forget about University City which is already dense and each have several highrises including the 437 foot Cira Center. There are two more Cira siblings on the way one rising 600 ft. Drexel and UPenn also have plans for plenty of highrise/midrise/skyscraper development and CHOP as well.
Now for the yellow. These are where dense midrise/lowrise development is planned much like DC. Most will be Business Districts or Entertainment Districts. A redevelopment of the entire Sports Complex with entertainment and retail complexes and hotels and residential (may see a few highrises here). The redevelopment of the Navy Yard which will include a suburban style business park and residential and possibly hotels and the redevelopment of the rest of lower south (mainly the old industrial sites) that will include midrise/lowrise development for commercial, retail and industrial use.
If you would like the links to all of these master plans and all of the construction redevelopment going on in the city of Philly then I will be happy to post them. Philadelphia is on a-whole-nother level than DC. While DC's midrises are continuous, it is hardly impressive. Any large city could do the same with height restrictions. I don't think there is one building over 12 stories in DC. What is that a height of 130' max?
And yes I went through all of this trouble just to prove how wrong you truly are.
Don't comment unless you know what you are talking about.
Last edited by RightonWalnut; 03-07-2012 at 01:21 PM..
Never said D.C. had something comparable to Rittenhouse Square.
The height of a building once you get to about 8 feet is basically the same when it comes to the street interaction. In fact, zero lot development has more to do with downtown feel and street vibrancy than height once you get to about 6-8 stories. Nobody except geeks without a life walk around looking at whether a building is 10 stories or 60 stories as they walk the streets throughout a city during their life. Who even looks up? LOL.... People care about night life, attractions, restaurants, shopping etc. etc. Those are the reason's people come visit and live in downtown area's. D.C. is infilling at an unprecedented rate and it is already starting to feel like one big area. This is accomplished because D.C.'s core forms a square shape which is a huge advantage in connectivity. Cities with square or circle core's internationally have a huge advantage when it comes to connectivity and expansion. Cities with 4 mile long 1/2 mile wide strips however do not.
Maybe, you and your friends should find a dictionary and look up the definition of high rise. Then look up the definition of sky scraper. Unless you think you know more than Webster, stay in your lane.
A high rise is anything taller than 12 floors or 115 feet. A skyscraper is anything taller than 328 feet and a Supertall is anything taller than 980 feet. Yes I know the definitions but they are mostly subjective. I don't consider anything under 200 feet to be a highrise by todays standards. Anything under 200 feet is a midrise. Oh, I added one more red shape. This area currently has no plans but is in serious need of redevelopment and will one day probably include highrises/midrise by your definition.
Just so you get an idea of the shear size of the areas I am talking about and help you understand what I mean. And yes these areas will all be "connected."
The blue is areas where dense highrise/midrise development already exists or where they are currently being developed or planned. Center City obviously in the middle with several highrises and a skyscraper already being built as well as several more planned not to mention the hundreds of skyscrapers/highrises already built. Not to mention the plans for redevelopment of the Loft District, Market East and Franklin Square with highrises. The plan for redevelopment of a 7 mile stretch of the Delaware Waterfront which will be phased and government aid is already being acquired to spur development. When completely finished this area will include highrises and midrises all down the riverfront. Highrise/midrsie redevelopment plans already occurring or planned in Callowhill and Northern Liberties in North Philadelphia as well as Franklintown and the Museum District (a lot of Highrises already here as well). There are also plans for the complete redevelopment of the North Broad Corridor with highrise and midrise development as well as Temple University's master plan which includes dense high rise and midrise development. A 312 footer is currently under construction and another 300 footer, a possible 500 footer, and a 241 footer is planned not to mention the several 200 footers and mid rises already built. (Hopefully one day the Lower Yorktown/Spring Arts neighborhoods will be redeveloped as well). Let's not forget about University City which is already dense and each have several highrises including the 437 foot Cira Center. There are two more Cira siblings on the way one rising 600 ft. Drexel and UPenn also have plans for plenty of highrise/midrise/skyscraper development and CHOP as well.
Now for the yellow. These are where dense midrise/lowrise development is planned much like DC. Most will be Business Districts or Entertainment Districts. A redevelopment of the entire Sports Complex with entertainment and retail complexes and hotels and residential (may see a few highrises here). The redevelopment of the Navy Yard which will include a suburban style business park and residential and possibly hotels and the redevelopment of the rest of lower south (mainly the old industrial sites) that will include midrise/lowrise development for commercial, retail and industrial use.
If you would like the links to all of these master plans and all of the construction redevelopment going on in the city of Philly then I will be happy to post them. Philadelphia is on a-whole-nother level than DC. While DC's midrises are continuous, it is hardly impressive. Any large city could do the same with height restrictions. I don't think there is one building over 12 stories in DC. What is that a height of 130' max?
And yes I went through all of this trouble just to prove how wrong you truly are.
Don't comment unless you know what you are talking about.
Unless they are planning to knock down all those row houses Iin that huge hole in your picture and build high rises there, it's not going to be one area. You basically just proved my point. If I drew you a similar map of DC, the yellow and blue would be right next to each other forming one area. Philly has row houses creating a huge barrier which is what I said.
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If you want to include all those areas in DC than we'll have to include all of those areas in Philadelphia. Fair is fair right?
