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How is DT DC forced? It's completely built out. Tysons Corner is forced. DT DC has evolved over the years. You can walk two miles east to west through DT DC and not see a break in development. I agree that DT Philly is a thriving residential neighborhood, something that DC only has pockets of for now. As for cultural amenities, DC has Philly beat by a long shot. There are too many things to do and see in DT DC.
I keep telling you it's pointless to argue with these people. Comparing our downtown to theirs is not going to be apples to apples. Remember, people draw imaginary lines in D.C. when they compare their cities even though D.C. has the only downtown core with absolutely no break in physical build. I mean, Philadelphia includes row house neighborhood in center city saying they are apart of downtown with 50 story towers. If D.C. used the same parameters that center city uses, where exactly would downtown D.C. stop, Petworth? Is the Capitol Hill neighborhood downtown D.C. too? Is Georgetown apart of downtown D.C.?
If an out of town visitor that has never been to D.C. was asked to define where downtown stops and begins, they would not get it right by the naked eye. They would all be wrong. In their cities, it's clear what looks like downtown development and what does not. I mean, you have people trying to say center city has more cultural amenities than downtown D.C. which means they probably have cut downtown DC up pretty small. They probably don't have the Kennedy Center listed as downtown for instance. They probably don't include the national mall as downtown. We will never be able to relate to their downtown's because their downtown's have physical barriers that show a clear change in development. Ours does not. They have 50 story high rises that drop too two story buildings and the funny things is, they still say those two story area's are part of their downtown's way beyond the boundaries when the intensity of development has dropped. This is apples and oranges and it's best to let them argue with themselves.
I keep telling you it's pointless to argue with these people. Comparing our downtown to theirs is not going to be apples to apples. Remember, they draw imaginary lines in D.C. when they compare their cities even though D.C. has the only downtown core with absolutely no break in physical build. I mean, Philadelphia includes row house neighborhood in center city. If D.C. uses the same parameters that center city includes, where exactly would downtown D.C. stop?
Take and out of town visitor that has never been to D.C. and ask them to define where downtown stops and begins. Good luck with that! I mean, you have people trying to say center city has more cultural amenities than downtown D.C. which means they probably have cut downtown DC up pretty small. They probably don't have the Kennedy Center listed as downtown for instance. They probably don't include the national mall as downtown. We will never be able to relate to their downtown's because their downtown's have physical barriers that show a clear change in development. Ours does not. They have 50 story high rises that drop too two story buildings and the funny things is, they still say those two story area's are part of their downtown's way beyond the boundaries when the intensity of development has dropped. This is apples and oranges and it's best to let them argue with themselves.
some truths to this and both sides are equally quilty, include yourself and myself
though no matter where you frame either DT on cultural amentities to say DC beast Philly by a long shot is lacking in credibility. While jobs and office space are an issue that could better in Philly; Cultural amentities are absolutely not one of them and on this aspect some aspects will skew to DC and some to Philly. To suggest otherwise displays a lack of understanding in the cities.
On your earlier post of the Poets club or Bothaways (?) no I have not; and am sure no one has fully experienced all in the others cities. I do FWIW consistently sense a perspective that is very much racially skewed in your interpretation and comparison, while personal experience and preference is by all means perfectly fine; this also limits the perspective. There are amentities in both cities that many or few may experience. Citing one or two specifics is about as relevant in the broad comparison as me saying if you havent done happy hours at the Philadelphia Raquet club, or events at the Union League or attend debates at the Philadelphia ethical society you have no basis to comment on Philly, to me that would be foolish
What is lost on all this is that all three of these DTs offer many spectacular aspects and are all among the best the US has to offer.
Last edited by kidphilly; 03-22-2012 at 09:58 AM..
The one area DC wants to catch up with Philly in sooooo bad is the arts. They're building "artist lofts" in DC, which ultimately end up being occupied by antitrust attorneys and patent examiners. The city doesn't have a creative element, which really bums out the lawyers and Hill staffers who were hoping to live near that element and siphon off its energy.
I mean, you have people trying to say center city has more cultural amenities than downtown D.C. which means they probably have cut downtown DC up pretty small. They probably don't have the Kennedy Center listed as downtown for instance. They probably don't include the national mall as downtown. We will never be able to relate to their downtown's because their downtown's have physical barriers that show a clear change in development. Ours does not. They have 50 story high rises that drop too two story buildings and the funny things is, they still say those two story area's are part of their downtown's way beyond the boundaries when the intensity of development has dropped. This is apples and oranges and it's best to let them argue with themselves.
DC has an expansive, sterile downtown. Philadelphia has a compact, vibrant downtown. There's your difference.
In all my years living in DC, never did I say to my girl, "Hey, let's grab a few sandwiches and head down to McPherson Square this Saturday. We can look at the Au Bon Pain that's closed during the weekend and watch Metrobuses whiz by." Downtown DC is vapid. You guys are building up Gallery Place to be this world-class destination when really it's a movie theater, a bowling alley, and a few places like Chipotle for teeny-boppers to fill their bellies so they can recover from the Bieber Fever they caught at the Verizon Center.
DC has an expansive, sterile downtown. Philadelphia has a compact, vibrant downtown. There's your difference.
So, is Columbia Heights downtown D.C.? How about Shaw? Using Center City's definition of downtown boundaries, where exactly does downtown D.C. stop? Let's do an apples and apples comparison. Show me the difference in physical build so I know if I'm in Philadelphia or I'm in D.C., I know I have left downtown.
In all my years living in DC, never did I say to my girl, "Hey, let's grab a few sandwiches and head down to McPherson Square this Saturday. We can look at the Au Bon Pain that's closed during the weekend and watch Metrobuses whiz by." Downtown DC is vapid. You guys are building up Gallery Place to be this world-class destination when really it's a movie theater, a bowling alley, and a few places like Chipotle for teeny-boppers to fill their bellies so they can recover from the Bieber Fever they caught at the Verizon Center.
Did you ever go to Adam's Morgan in D.C., in Philadelphia, that would still be considered downtown included in center city. Drive up 18th street from Dupont Circle, looks just like the row house neighborhoods in Center City.
Did you ever go to Adam's Morgan in D.C., in Philadelphia, that would still be considered downtown included in center city. Drive up 18th street from Dupont Circle, looks just like the row house neighborhoods in Center City.
Adams Morgan feels pretty far IMHO; but understand your point. On thing to think about is even with the rows in Philly they are typically within 2 to 3 blocks of some assemblance of CBD; wouldnt say the same Adam Morgan. Adams Morgan is like a very small less edgy South Street which is actually not part of DT Philly either
If you are saying a rowhouse nabe on Pine, walking two blocks to Locust puts you firmly in the mixed work area, menaing highrises with many jobs and a place like Pine has intermixed highrises throughout. The one nabe technically considered CC that lack any real office concentration is Society Hill; which has more than its fair share of highrises but is vastly residential. Society Hill is probably one of Americans greatest Urban renewal neighborhoods and also is the largest collection of colonial architecture in the country. It also is home most of the Independence Mall National Historic Park; this is a very residential Nabe with the only office towers on Walnut between 3rd and 6th. But this neighborhood will always be this way; it is basically a living museum in many ways at this point.
Lastly Philly is developed as an old style mixed use, Not all exisits in the same building. If your criteria is solely office buildings have at it. If it solely some uniform build have at it. DC is the only uniform building styled city in the sountry, what you prefer or use to define. If you dont like rowhomes in the CBD you must hate Midtown Manhattan as well
Adams Morgan feels pretty far IMHO; but understand your point. On thing to think about is even with the rows in Philly they are typically within 2 to 3 blocks of some assemblance of CBD; wouldnt say the same Adam Morgan. Adams Morgan is like a very small less edgy South Street which is actually not part of DT Philly either
If you are saying a rowhouse nabe on Pine, walking two blocks to Locust puts you firmly in the mixed work area, menaing highrises with many jobs and a place like Pine has intermixed highrises throughout. The one nabe technically considered CC that lack any real office concentration is Society Hill; which has more than its fair share of highrises but is vastly residential. Society Hill is probably one of Americans greatest Urban renewal neighborhoods and also is the largest collection of colonial architecture in the country. It also is home most of the Independence Mall National Historic Park; this is a very residential Nabe with the only office towers on Walnut between 3rd and 6th. But this neighborhood will always be this way; it is basically a living museum in many ways at this point.
Lastly Philly is developed as an old style mixed use, Not all exisits in the same building. If your criteria is solely office buildings have at it. If it solely some uniform build have at it. DC is the only uniform building styled city in the sountry, what you prefer or use to define. If you dont like rowhomes in the CBD you must hate Midtown Manhattan as well
I don't have a problem with row houses. My point has to do with the common practice by you guys of not including row house neighborhoods in D.C.'s downtown. You see, our city actually defines our downtown at the CBD line. That is why population counts etc. fall the way they do. This is why it is impossible to compare our downtown's by any metric. Have you been to Shaw? How is that not downtown D.C. by your metrics? How is Mid City not downtown D.C. by your metric? How is Columbia Heights not downtown D.C. by your metric? These area's seemlessly connect to downtown D.C. and look just like downtown D.C. also. They are also mixed use. They also have the same building intensity. Let me ask you this, you know what is happening on these corridors, in 2015+, will you kidphilly consider Columbia Heights and Mid City apart of downtown D.C.? The same thing is happening in Shaw, will you KidPhilly consider Shaw apart of downtown D.C.? They are all mixed use with huge office and residential components.
As for Adam's Morgan, there have been many posters on here that shall remain nameless that have included neighborhoods for Center City that are just like Adam's Morgan. The building intensity around Adam's Morgan is the same as the rest of D.C. so where exactly are you drawing the line? What street? What street west of Adam's Morgan? Or east? Or south? How do I know where it stops? What is the formula you use?
I don't have a problem with row houses. My point has to do with the common practice by you guys of not including row house neighborhoods in D.C.'s downtown. You see, our city actually defines our downtown at the CBD line. That is why population counts etc. fall the way they do. This is why it is impossible to compare our downtown's by any metric. Have you been to Shaw? How is that not downtown D.C. by your metrics? How is Mid City not downtown D.C. by your metric? How is Columbia Heights not downtown D.C. by your metric? These area's seemlessly connect to downtown D.C. and look just like downtown D.C. also. They are also mixed use. They also have the same building intensity. Let me ask you this, you know what is happening on these corridors, in 2015+, will you kidphilly consider Columbia Heights and Mid City apart of downtown D.C.? The same thing is happening in Shaw, will you KidPhilly consider Shaw apart of downtown D.C.? They are all mixed use with huge office and residential components.
DC has a larger footprint, see page one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten etc.
No Shaw doesnt feel like DT, has some characteristics but is nothing like living at 20th and Spruce in Philly where you are literally seconds from everything. Shaw will still feel more like a Queen Village to close but not on top of the core
I am fine with extending the DT; end of the day it just spreads more. U City in Philly is probably more DT in your eyes than would be Society Hill; it is actually the most similar development style to DT DC in Philly, though I dont consider it DT Philly, maybe the extended DT, of which maybe Shaw qualifies and will moreso in the future (actually really like this area, like Woodley park and the accesss to Rock Creak if I have place correct). There is concentration to the core in regards to DT and many grey aspects
And which rowhouse neighborhood are we including in the DT; am curious - are you calling Rittenhouse Sq, Washington Sq West, Chinatown, Logan Sq, Fitler Sq (to me is), Society Hill (would not even truly call this a row nabe; moxed in so many ways), ME, MW, Old City?
Am curious where are all these rowhouse nabes we are considering DT, are they there yes, a majority of the nabes, not really. Now if you say Fairmount or the Art Museum neighborhood or Bella Vista or GHo or Queen Village, absolutely row nabes, but these are not in CC by the definition being used here
Last edited by kidphilly; 03-22-2012 at 11:11 AM..
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