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My lifestyle changed quite a lot moving from NYC to Boston actually.
And not trying to *kill* you on this but "stuff" can build culture, character and vibe in a city as well. I agree this whole I have more of X than you or my X is bigger than yours is silly and doesn't matter much in day-to-day living after a certain point. But "stuff" does add to a city in many ways. For e.g. the fact that the UN is located in NYC doesn't impact one's life as a New Yorker directly but housing a center-stage for (most) of the world to come together brings intangible benefits to the city. Every country will have representatives there, will buy residences there, will visit regularly, will spend money there, will feed on and engage in other amenities of the city, will demand top notch dinning and theatres, will meet and interact with locals in the city, and will attract best and the brightest-types to the city via institutions and think tanks to support world power brokers. It raises the profile of the city and makes things more interesting and exciting through many different ways. This is just an example but I wouldn't underestimate the power of *stuff* on a city even if individuals may not partake in them directly.
Gotcha. Out of curiosity, do you think that some of this tends to rub off on the citizenry, sort of by osmosis?
Gotcha. Out of curiosity, do you think that some of this tends to rub off on the citizenry, sort of by osmosis?
To some extent, yes. To every single person, no, of course not. But overall, I believe "stuff" creates attraction and can contribute to having more worldly, well-rounded, educated, and interesting populace in a given city. The best thing about living in New York to me was the people you meet, and many are there because of "stuff".
Last edited by johnathanc; 09-03-2013 at 01:51 PM..
Great, it's a nonfactor for you and some others, but it is important for other people. For those who do find it important, Chicago has a pretty arguable case for being the better city for them. I think that's the gist of the whole thing, right?
Its the gist of some of the whole thing not all of the whole thing, right?
I agree. The thing is that the Torontonians who take this angle don't realize how unworldly it makes them to think that Toronto is special in this regard. Anyone who is well traveled and actually takes time to educate themselves on the cities they are visiting would see that diversity can be experienced in so many different cities around the globe. It's a strange belief within Toronto that they are experiencing some unique form of diversity that makes people who have lived and travelled elsewhere shake their head at times.
Of course other U.S cities have strong diversity... this whole Torontonians are not worldly because they think their city is just is 'special' argument is also weak... I invite any American to actually come up to Toronto and walk the streets and give me an honest impression as to where Toronto would rate in this aspect.. I'm pretty sure it would be pretty high on the list. If the consensus is that it is not more diverse and multiethnic than most cities in its peer group I can live with that. Stats show that it is but hey - perhaps there are the undocumented that make your average 5 million plus metro in N.A every bit if not more diverse than Toronto....If my assumption that Toronto is high on the list of one of the most diverse and multi-ethnic cities in the world - than I think the inference that it multicultural resto's is also a logical conclusion... fair or unfair?
Cool about what you said about Cambridge btw... I had great Vietnamese Pho in Hartford actually - who knew so don't be so quick to think i'm in the clouds.
As soon as we say that though we are 'boosters' who don't know our city.
Nonetheless, as many other posters have pointed out, Toronto's fine dining is not what it does best. Mid-range mom-and-pop shops and other spots that do innovative, delicious meals are really what TO does best. Fine dining isn't what most people eat every day, so having a wide range of excellent mid-range restaurants and all the diverse international choices are what makes Toronto's food scene great.
That's all I was trying to say... what started it... I had the audacity to 'claim' that Toronto excels at diverse mom and pop restaurants - in particular in its DT core. I said this to one poster who hadn't even been to Toronto as an invitation to that person - he without an agenda.. that was it.. After that the Tomahawks were launched painted with - Torontonians need to be worldly, Chicago owns Toronto for Michelin Restaurants, Boston is more culturally and ethnically diverse than Toronto, Toronto's citizens are blinded by the special syndrome etc etc etc.. blah blah blah - nothing has changed here lol.. I'm shocked how quickly this volley was launched by the team though - It was swift and orchestrated
btw you can't not post in here for more than 2 days otherwise it is a sign of weakness and retreat.. Thou shall not have a life outside of C v C..
Toronto has always struggled to define its personality as a city - this is still true today to some degree.
And so diversity has emerged as an obvious trait of the city and people have latched onto it.
But because diversity has filled a need that many people in Toronto have long had with respect to their civic identity, they sometimes go overboard with it and can claim that somehow this is a uniquely Torontonian characteristic.
I think you are reading into it far too much lol.......
Edward we all know you don't much care for Toronto and will post negative comments at every opportunity, you are entitled to your opinion, not sure why the almost pathological need to bash Toronto.
Toronto is a very diverse city, possibly one of the most diverse cities in the world,
IMO right up there with London and NYC.
Is it special? Not sure.
sssshhhhh don't say Toronto is diverse.. any reference to that and the boosters will win and we can't have that
Toronto needs to latch on to something else because clearly it is not one of the most diverse and multiethnic cities on the planet.... hmmm back to the drawing board Omg doctor please please give me something i'm having a nervous breakdown because my beloved Toronto is not that unique in the N.A landscape.... give me something please - peameal bacon sandwich..
Of course other U.S cities have strong diversity... this whole Torontonians are not worldly because they think their city is just is 'special' argument is also weak... I invite any American to actually come up to Toronto and walk the streets and give me an honest impression as to where Toronto would rate in this aspect.. I'm pretty sure it would be pretty high on the list.
As soon as we say that though we are 'boosters' who don't know our city.
No one is denying that Toronto is diverse, I typically refer to it as "Hyper Diverse" myself. The point that people are trying to make is just because it is more diverse than many other cities it does not automatically make it the only place where you can enjoy this cultural experience.
Let us use the theatre as an comparison. You have an incredible theatre scene in Toronto correct? But is it as large as NYC and London? No. But does that automatically mean that when you are sitting at the Princess of Wales Theatre enjoying "Les Mis" you are thinking to yourself that you are being denied any type of cultural experience because you are not on Broadway?
It is the same way if someone in Chicago is eating at an authentic Pakistani restaurant on Devon Avenue are they thinking to themselves that they wished they were eating the exact same food in Brampton?
That is the point, you can enjoy the exact same experience in both cities and many others around the globe. Toronto is not special in this regard because it has "More" of something.
No one is denying that Toronto is diverse, I typically refer to it as "Hyper Diverse" myself. The point that people are trying to make is just because it is more diverse than many other cities it does not automatically make it the only place where you can enjoy this cultural experience.
Let us use the theatre as an comparison. You have an incredible theatre scene in Toronto correct? But is it as large as NYC and London? No. But does that automatically mean that when you are sitting at the Princess of Wales Theatre enjoying "Les Mis" you are thinking to yourself that you are being denied any type of cultural experience because you are not on Broadway?
It is the same way if someone in Chicago is eating at an authentic Pakistani restaurant on Devon Avenue are they thinking to themselves that they wished they were eating the exact same food in Brampton?
That is the point, you can enjoy the exact same experience in both cities and many others around the globe. Toronto is not special in this regard because it has "More" of something.
All I said was that I thought Toronto excelled at diverse and affordable and accessible mom and pop restaurants...I didn't say it at the expense of any other city btw - including Chicago if you read back on my posts. Other posters including yourself disagree with me and that is fine - i'm truly ok with that and don't need a hug.. I'll let other visitors to the city be the judge of where to scale it. Personally if a city is 'hyper' diverse it is probably fair to say that it has 'hyper' diverse cuisine. Toronto's style in dining clearly is not as 'high' end as that of a city like Chicago.. That's ok... This isn't a checklist item that needs to be checked off on the worldly Toronto pdf that Torontonians staple to their back apparently lol - it just is what it is.. I think like most emerging cities - Toronto will probably mature in other arena's naturally over time but it is hardly unreasonable to make a claim for its multiethnic cuisine based on shear numbers alone in the here and now....
Of course I don't think more of is always better.. in some cases there is quality over quantity.. again something I never question in my posts.... If I said Toronto has the 3rd largest English Theatre scene in the world (which I believe it does), I don't think it would be unfair to say that Toronto excels in that arena... is it boosterism to say this? I don't think so (it isn't even saying that those in Chicago are deprived of theatre lol) but apparently others do.. Boosterism would be to make the claim in a NYC and London vs Toronto thread that Toronto excels at Theatre over London and NYC - THAT in my opinion is blind boosterism.
Please don't say - Let us use this as an example lol.. it comes off professorially...
The issue is that Toronto defines itself by its diversity so when someone says diversity not unique, then this is taken as a swipe against the city by some. That being said, Toronto is one of the most diverse cities out there and moreso than Chicago, that's indisputable. Does having more immigrants necessarily make a city better? It definitely adds flavor but it can also dilute flavor as well if there's isn't social cohesion. I'm also not sure if there is a perfect model of diversity, as that's very subjective. But Toronto is a very congenial place for most people from all walks of life, not to say Chicago is not international either because I think it qualifies as such.
Stepping back, what is most noticeable is that Chicago has more Black and Hispanic people and Toronto has more Chinese and Indian populations, so what? We can't say having X is better than Y or that having a lower % of white people makes a city better. I believe there are benefits to diversity but there's no perfect 'mix' or 'model'. Personally, I feel the local culture of how people interact & socialize with each other to be more important when I go somewhere. I find Chicago to be a little more friendly and outgoing but Toronto is more peaceful, relaxed and less class conscious (but this last point is changing lately).
I think there is some validity to this - but I just don't agree that Toronto defines itself as a city solely for its diversity.. It is a big part of it yes.. it has to be because over 50 percent are foreign born and they are fairly recent and still take huge pride in their own cultures and languages.. You know well that prior to the 70's Toronto was very waspy so when you go from that and in less than 50 years to what it is now it is going to be a big part of how and what the city sees itself (if a city can see itself as anything really).
Sure Chicago has more Black and Hispanic populations and i'm sure there are sizable parts of those populations that are recent but there are also large chunks who have hunkered down in the place much longer than in Toronto.. Perhaps migration from other parts of the U.S but they are more established in their land.
I think you are right in that it can't fairly be said that Chicago on the whole is more multicultural/multi ethic than Toronto.. you just don't have the same breadth or depth of diversity.. You don't get the same in your face FOB effect.. You may have a similar visible minority mix but for sheer diversity of ethnicities and mother tongues... it doesn't and only NYC would challenge Toronto in that regard in N.A.. Does this make Toronto better, special or more superior to Chicago - it depends on who you ask and who you are but on the whole I would say no - just different.
Aside from that I agree with your astute observations... Toronto is a congenial place and not just for multi racial and multi ethnic diversity... I've said this in the Toronto forum, it isn't uncommon to see an Islamic family dressed the part walking through Cabbagetown or down Yonge Street and have a gay couple walk right by them hand in hand and neither would bat an eyelash.. That's pretty congenial.. It isn't to say the place is perfect or that this couldn't happen elsewhere in the world or in the U.S either - but this sight is fairly common in Toronto and others like it (Muslims and Christians at Dundas Square for example) and these are not exactly as 'common' an urban scene as is in other cities in its peer group in N.A..
Speaking to the FOB effect and pride that people still have in the mother lands - I think this is born out in Toronto very strongly in its festivals and street scenes such as when countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal etc win in World Cup Soccer their perspective hoods are practically shut down in massive and spontaneous street scenes of celebration..
Last edited by fusion2; 09-03-2013 at 08:22 PM..
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