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As of January 2013, Toronto had a whopping $10.3 billion worth of rapid transit expansion projects under construction as you can see below. And this doesn't even include the Bloor-Danforth subway extension, which is scheduled to begin construction in 2014. The Bloor-Danforth extension is expected to cost $1.4 billion.
And the Union-Pearson Express will put Chicago's Blue Line connection from the Loop to O'Hare to shame. Why? It will only take 25 minutes from Union Station to Pearson. It's so fast because it will only be making two stops in-between. Chicago's Blue Line from The Loop to O'Hare airport takes about 45 minutes, nearly twice as long.
The bolding is mine. It's kinda hard to compare an express line to a section of the Blue line that's servicing the better part of Chicago's northwest side in addition to O'Hare. Outside of the Loop there's something like 16 stops.
The incredible downtown Toronto to Pearson airport rail line opening in 2015. Only 25 minute travel time! Chicagoans wished the Blue Line from downtown Chicago to O'Hare airport only took 25 minutes!
Yea, it'd be amazing if Chicago could do something with its O'Hare Transfer service for Metra. It's 27 minutes from the Loop to that station, but it's not frequent enough and the people mover that takes people through the terminals doesn't make it to the station. The people mover is expanding to the station, but there are no plans to massively increase the frequency of service on the Metra line (it'd have to basically quadruple its current frequency to match the plans for Union Pearson). It'd be an incredibly cost-effective way to get an express downtown to airport transit, but Chicago and Metra obviously don't have the money for this--and really, there's a lot more the city needs to deal with before shaving twenty minutes of transit time for people to from downtown to airport. Maybe a miraculous ball of money will drop on Chicago so it can have a system like that in 2015. As it is now though, Chicago still has the advantage for another year or two.
There is a comparably fast (and more frequent) mass transit access from the Loop to Midway along the Orange Line (also 25 minutes), but Midway handles just over half the number of passengers Toronto Pearson does and less than a third of what O'Hare does.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 12-01-2013 at 03:31 AM..
Sounds like you didn't read my post... I listed various things from cleanliness, to headways, to connectivity, overnight service, etc but you are focusing on just ridership and ignoring the reality.
By the way... Where is Atlantas commuter rail? I have yet to see such a thing there. Think about the reason why Marta is the length it is before you mention that one again.
If you know what public transit is then you know there is more to public transit to just the length of track which I already stated in my last post.... But again, I bet you didn't even read my last post.
Maybe waiting 15 minutes for trains might seem cool in the Chi (think winter time)... but the only time that happens in Toronto is when there is some sort of delay or service disruption.
When are these 15 min head ways on the EL, they are certainly not on the red, blue, brown lines ( which I take often)
The funny thing is most of Chicago's heavy rail platforms are outside (even if they're covered), so people are literally waiting in the cold like you say
I'm so glad to live in a real city where subway headways are never more than 5 minutes on any part of any line at any time 365 days a year, barring a delay. I'd go nuts with Chicago's terrible, terrible service frequency. Can you imagine waiting outside in the freezing cold for more than 10 minutes in the middle of the winter? Crazy. I guess they're used to it down there though. LOL.
You guys are talking about long waits when you don't even have running trains over less lines. Pleasee
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I determine the Simply having more miles of rail doesn't make Chicago's system "better" than Toronto's. Were it better it would do higher ridership. Or at least close to the same ridership. It's not anywhere near close. Metro Chicago's transit share is only 0.5% than Canada's share as a whole. That's laughable for a major metro area.
Chicago Metro Area: 11.5%
Toronto Metro Area: 23.3%
Case closed.
This is where your logic is completely failing you. You guys have such a hard on for Toronto you see what you want to see and pick the metrics you want to prop up.
The funny thing is most of Chicago's heavy rail platforms are outside (even if they're covered), so people are literally waiting in the cold like you say
I'm so glad to live in a real city where subway headways are never more than 5 minutes on any part of any line at any time 365 days a year, barring a delay. I'd go nuts with Chicago's terrible, terrible service frequency. Can you imagine waiting outside in the freezing cold for more than 10 minutes in the middle of the winter? Crazy. I guess they're used to it down there though. LOL.
No I can't....because it never happens. During rush hour the lines that most people take come every 3-5 minutes. During the rest of the time it's normally around 5-10 minutes during off hours. What are you talking, like the Green Line off hours? The ones people take during the times they take them come every few minutes. I very very rarely wait more than 3 minutes.
Your other post babbled off about 15 minute head times on the trains in Chicago. When? Sunday at 6am? I can count on my hand how many times I've ever waited 15 minutes for a train in Chicago and I've been car free here taking it every day for 12 years.
The funny thing is most of Chicago's heavy rail platforms are outside (even if they're covered), so people are literally waiting in the cold like you say
I'm so glad to live in a real city where subway headways are never more than 5 minutes on any part of any line at any time 365 days a year, barring a delay. I'd go nuts with Chicago's terrible, terrible service frequency. Can you imagine waiting outside in the freezing cold for more than 10 minutes in the middle of the winter? Crazy. I guess they're used to it down there though. LOL.
Yep. Imagine waiting 15-20 minutes for a train....in the cold.... at night...requiring a restroom....in Southside Chicago. Sounds fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil
This is honestly like comparing apples and oranges. The TTC's subway does not service nearly as much as Toronto as the CTA's L lines do Chicago.
The CTA oversees eight L lines. It should also be noted that two lines run 24 hours, two primarily service the city but also extend to specific suburbs, one primarily services a specific suburb but also services the city during peak hours, and one leaves the city and takes you to a specific suburb.
The TTC, meanwhile, oversees four lines, none of which run 24 hours.
It makes financial sense that the CTA would run less used lines more infrequently than at peak times in order to operate longer. The TTC would probably be doing something similar if they ran a similar network.
Also, consider this; if the CTA L lines have less overall ridership than the TTC's subway, why would they be running their trains more frequently during off peak hours if there were far less people planning on riding them? I've honestly been on the redline, one of the 24 hour lines, in the middle of the night, and there have been times when I was literally the only person in my specific train car. The only time there's actually a significant amount of people waiting on the redline in the middle of the night is when last call occurs, and that only lasts a brief period of time.
Except, you know, when they're not running.
According to the the TTC's website, the wait time for the TTC's overnight service is "30 minutes or better." Do you happen to have a link that lists the typically wait times for the replacement buses?
If not, the quote should be noted since you're comparing Toronto's smaller subway system to Chicago's at its slowest of times at off-peak hours, and since that overnight service is making up for the lack of running trains.
There have been a few times where I have wished that the CTA did have public restrooms, but overall I shudder at the thought of what they would look like and at what would be happening in them. That's also not just a Chicago thing, as the majority of public transit services in America have taken that same approach.
If that's not an issue in Toronto, then good for you guys, but considering the problems that America has, it's probably best that there aren't public restrooms.
I guess you need to ask yourself whether greater coverage with slower times during off-peak hours (especially for the less used lines) is what you desire, or if you desire a more compact system that covers less area but is more timely when it's actually running.
Also Chicago's system does indeed have many of the benefits that you cover, in addition to greater coverage. The one primary exception is parking. Chances are if you have a car, and could afford parking in Chicago, you wouldn't want to drive it to a CTA L stop anyway. If the stop isn't necessarily quick walking distance from your location, then there's typically a nearby bus that will get you there. The point of the CTA is to navigate the city without a car being in the equation
PS: Chicago's L platforms have heat lamp stations. Chances are if you're riding the L at an off peak time, and did just miss your train, you're most likely not going to have an issue getting under said lamps.
As you can see for these routes I just posted some times the bus comes as frequent as every 3 minutes at time for both lines. One is a long east-west bus route while the other is north and south.
Whereas in Chicago, the red an blue lines that run overnight come every 10-15 minutes. Therefore, Toronto's 2 overnight bus lines that come more frequently would be equal to or may be better than the 10-15 minutes headway for Chicago El trains that run overnight when you add it all up. Most other TTC bus lines (24 in total for Toronto vs 17 for Chicago), come every minutes overnight with some coming more frequently. If you look at both maps it looks like Toronto does a better jobs covering more parts of the city than Chicago does overnight.
Why do you shudder at public restrooms on the El? Do you not use a washroom at McDonalds in Chicago? Or a Walmart if you needed it? Or even a shopping mall? What difference is this between on the CTA or at a McDonalds?
In Toronto, all the washrooms are clean and are maintained properly. I'm sure CTA would have employees doing that same for riders. But sadly washrooms are for only employees.
"I guess you need to ask yourself whether greater coverage with slower times during off-peak hours (especially for the less used lines) is what you desire, or if you desire a more compact system that covers less area but is more timely when it's actually running."
^I think the choice is obvious for me. Would I rather wait longer (in heat, cold, rain snow etc), for less frequent service, OR would I rather wait for a shorter time in better frequent service to get to my destination quicker? I think I prefer the latter. Why travel somewhere in 30 mins, when you can get there in 20 minutes?
Yes, the point of riding transit is to avoid the car, but not everyone can do this. Sometimes even though one may have a car it would be cheaper to take transit and quicker as well. For example, people that have a car and live in the suburbs can drive to a close station, park, and then take the transit all way downtown to avoid Toronto's brutal traffic, parking, rush hour and other things. This can be done at many stations in Toronto where "park and ride" is available and more convenient. It's not about affordability, but its more of a convenience thing which is a plus for the TTC.
The same applies to Toronto. If a subway station is not close by then the bus will get you to one is needed. Many bus lines have service that is 10 minutes or better all across the entire city. Again, the parking option is available which is a benefit. For Toronto's commuter rail, lots of new parking structures have been built, or are being built to expand existing parking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Agree with you on the restroom thing though Chicago, somewhat like Toronto but on a much smaller scale, does have an underground city thing going on where there are connections and passageways to buildings that do have restrooms.
You're right on the 15 minutes headway or longer at some points, but it's not much of a dig on Chicago as I think there should be some context in this comparison of headways. One is that the most of the 15 minutes or worse headways occur during hours of operation where the Toronto Subway system does not operate at all. The Green Line's really bad times are at the tail ends of them because it's starting from two branches in the South Side for a total of four stations (two on each branch) before the two branches combine into a trunk. That would be four stations out of thirty. There are several stations, especially those in and closer to downtown or on the north side, that actually have more than one service inline serving them for some stops so for some riders that would essentially be a halving of headways.
The other lines you didn't post are Red, Brown, Purple, Pink, and Yellow. The first three are better in terms of headways (Red and Blue especially which combined have about as many stations and as much coverage as the entire Toronto Subway system; throw in the third busiest Brown Line and you've got a stew going), the Pink and Yellow (Yellow looks to be just a small stub/shuttle sort of thing) are about the same as the ones you posted.
It would be great for Chicago to run their trains more frequently though. I wonder if there's an operational bottleneck from having as many shared lines as it does. Anyone know? Can the system easily increase frequencies during rush hours without having to do anything in infrastructural changes?
Does that apply to the restrooms connection to stations outside of the Loop? Because in Toronto, it applies to all major stations and transfer stations outside of Toronto's downtown. If you look at a Toronto subway map and look at stations like Kennedy, Finch, Kipling, Sheppard etc.. These are all 10-15+ miles outside of downtown. They all have fully functional bathrooms. So you don't have to leave and come back or pay another fare.
As far as the headways go, if you look at the pdf's I posted there are plenty of times where the 15 minute headway applies while the TTC is still running 5 minute headways or better.
And at times up to every 20 mins for some times on the brown line. Yes the stays stays about open longer but again there are some bus line in Toronto that are running at 10 mins or better while this is happening. SO when the TTC subway is not operating You have some bus lines that come as frequently as 10 minutes and in some cases earlier depending on the line. But other line run no more than 30 minute headways but those apply to the outer areas.
Yes Chicago has more lines, but again again Toronto has many bus routes that operates as frequently as every 2-3 minutes throughout various parts of the day. This makes up for not having a the extra subway lines that the CTA has and back up the efficiency and speed. Here are a few examples.
As for CTA's Yellow line, whether its a "stub" or not, its 5.1 miles long. Trains come every 10-15 minutes.
In Toronto there is a purple line which is the Sheppard Subway. Again, whether this is "stub" or not, this line is only 3.4 miles long. Less than Chicago's Yellow line, but the Sheppard subway still has headways of every 2-3 minutes in peak periods or 5 minute headways during off peak periods. You can kind of do the math there.
As you can see for these routes I just posted some times the bus come sas frequest as every 3 minutes at time for both lines. One is a long east-west bus route while the other is north and south.
Whereas in Chicago, the red an blue lines that run over night come every 10-15 minutes. Therefore, Toronto's 2 overnight bus lines that come more frequently would be equal to or may be better than the 10-15 minutes headway for Chicago El trains that run overnight when you add it all up. Most other TTC bus lines (24 in total for Toronto vs 17 for Chicago), come ever 10 to a maximum of 30 minutes overnight. If you look at both maps it looks like Toronto does a better jobs covering more parts of the city than Chicago does.
Why do you shudder at public restrooms on the El. Do you not use a washroom at Mcdonalds in Chicago? or a Walmart if you needed it? or even a shopping mall? What difference is this between on the CTA or at a Mcdonalds.
If Toronto all the washrooms are clean and are maintained properly. Im sure CTA would have employees doing that same for riders.
"I guess you need to ask yourself whether greater coverage with slower times during off-peak hours (especially for the less used lines) is what you desire, or if you desire a more compact system that covers less area but is more timely when it's actually running."
^I think the choice is obvious for me. Would I rather wait longer, for less frequent service, OR would I wait for a shorter time in better frequent service to get to my destination quicker? I think I prefer the latter.
Yes the point of riding transit is to avoid the car, but not everyone can do this. Sometime even though one may have a car it would be cheaper to take transit and quicker as well. For example people that have a car and living in the suburbs can drive to a close station, park, and then take the TTC all way downtown to avoid Toronto's brutal traffic, parking and other things. This can be done at many stations in Toronto where park and ride is available and more convenient. Its not about affordability, but its more of a convenience thing which is a plus for the TTC.
The same applies to Toronto. If a subway station is not close by then the bus will get you to one is needed. Many bus line have service that is 10 minutes or better all across the entire city. Again the parking option is available which is a benefit.
Does that apply to the restrooms connection to stations outside of the Loop? Because in Toronto, it applies to all major stations and transfer stations outside of Toronto's downtown. If you look at a Toronto subway map and look at stations like Kennedy, Finch, Kipling, Sheppard etc.. These are all 10-15+ miles outside of downtown. They all have fully functional bathrooms. So you don't have to leave and come back or pay another fare.
As far as the headways go, if you look at the pdf's I posted there are plenty of times where the 15 minute headway applies while the TTC is still running 5 minute headways or better.
And at times up to every 20 mins for some times on the brown line. Yes the stays stays about open longer but again there are some bus line in Toronto that are running at 10 mins or better while this is happening. SO when the TTC subway is not operating You have some bus lines that come as frequently as 10 minutes and in some cases earlier depending on the line. But other line run no more than 30 minute headways but those apply to the outer areas.
Yes Chicago has more lines, but again again Toronto has many bus routes that operates as frequently as every 2-3 minutes throughout various parts of the day. This makes up for not having a the extra subway lines that the CTA has and back up the efficiency and speed. Here are a few examples.
As for CTA's yellow, whether its a "stub" or not, its 5.1 miles long. Trains come every 10-15 minutes.
In Toronto there is a purple line which is the Sheppard subway. Again, whether this is "stub" or not, this line is only 3.4 miles long. Less than Chicago's Yellow line, but the Sheppard subway still has headways of every 2-3 minutes in peak periods or 5 minute headways during off peak periods. You can kind of do the math there.
Based on this post I would wager you've never been to chicago, let alone ride the EL
I don't know, Toronto's hours of operation of 6 to 1:30 seem pretty decent to me. People over here make such a big deal about 24hr service when in reality very few utilize it. I question the need for 24hr service on a system like the Chicago El which generates 3,500 boardings per mile of track on an average weekday (or 7,000 per route mile). By contrast, the Toronto subway gets 25,000 boardings per track mile. That's a massive difference. I am not saying that the Toronto system must therefore necessarily be better (there are a lot of other factors that go into which is "better") but they must be doing something right -- whether through better system design or quality of service - to get such a higher yield. I for one would take better frequency during the day (weekdays and weekends) over extra few hours of service in the middle of the night any day. I am sure those who rely on night service might feel different but they are a minority.
I had no idea people from toronto were so psycho about their transit system.
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