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I'm from Cleveland, trust me. I know what Lake Erie looks like. You still could not pay me to swim at Edgewater or anywhere else in Lake Erie near Cleveland. Simply don't like the way the water looks, and anybody else who has swam there compared to another area of Lake Erie, or another body of water in general knows what I'm talking about.
I don't think any of us will hold this against you, It's like a natural rule for Clevelanders, there has undoubtedly been at least one point in time where we've all probably refused to go into the water and the lake was a place fish go to die instead of where people go to swim haha.
But the water quality of the lake is nowhere to where it used to be, it has improved drastically in recent years and perfectly fine to swim. Thousands of people go in it now every year, the areas that had a reputation for being murky colored are now blue. Like my parents said, when they were living in Cleveland years ago the water was green. Now the lake is mostly blue again and according to them doesn't look like "acid that will melt your skin" anymore.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Similarly, here in Minneapolis, I refuse to go into the Mississippi River. Not just because it turns you green, but also because people sometimes find bodies floating in the river and I just don't think I could go back into a natural water source after having an encounter like that! It's amazing what we did to our rivers and lakes (and oceans) before we "knew better" (or before we were held accountable)!!
I don't think you understand diversity...diversity isn't just black, white, hispanic, asian...
Cleveland still has ethnic neighborhoods...neighborhoods that are predominately Italian, Irish, Vietnamese/Cambodian, Puerto Rican, Jewish...and neighborhoods with strong ethnic populations of Polish, Ukrainian, and Greek.
Catholic masses are still said in Polish, Slovenian, and Hungarian in this city. Eastern Orthodox services still said in Ukrainian and Greek. Hell, I know of churches around here that are Egyptian Coptic Christrian and Armenian Christian,
Cleveland metro has 84,000 Jews....strong Jewish influence on the eastside.
Cleveland metro has 130,000 of Hungarian decent (most in nation?)
Very authentic ethnic restaurants...again including Italian, Polish, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Ukrainian, Kosher, Soul Food, Puerto Rican, Thai, Korean, Chinese, Hungarian, Greek,
If you go to the Westside Market on a Saturday...you're going to hear at least 5 different languages being spoken.
Although I'm personally half Ukrainian and half Italian...one of my favorite places to stuff myself is an old Polish place:
Thanks, but I fully understand the meaning of ethnic diversity. I didn't feel like breaking down numbers to prove that many of you have no idea about the Minneapolis - St. Paul area or the people who live there. You can talk about Cleveland's ethnic neighborhoods all you want, but to not acknowledge that the central cities of MPLS - STPL have ethnic neighborhoods is completely ignorant.
You have access to the Internet so feel free to look up the ethnic food diversity offered throughout MPLS. - STPL. It's very easy to find ethnic restaurants including Vietnamese, Hmong, Thai, Ethiopian, Chinese, Ukranian, Russian, etc... That being said, Cleveland does not have MPLS. - STPL. beat in ethnic cuisine.
As far as ethnic diversity is concerned, here are more numbers: Foreign Born Population (as of 2009):
Minneapolis: 59,093
St. Paul: 42,669
Cleveland: 19,495
Naturalized U.S. Citizen (as of 2009):
Minneapolis: 19,025
St. Paul: 18,802
Cleveland: 10,950
Not a U.S. Citizen (as of 2009):
Minneapolis: 40,068
St. Paul: 23,867
Cleveland: 8,545
BTW, the MPLS - STPL area has the largest Somali, Hmong, Oromo (Ethiopian), Liberian, Karen (Burmese) and Anuak (Ethiopian/Sudanese) populations in the U.S., and is home to the second largest Tibetan population.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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costello_musician is pretty laid back, knowledgable, and overall pretty cool, so we don't have to start throwing barbs at one-another about this. I respect the Clevelanders' opinions about ethnicitiy, especially when it comes to European ethnicity. In Minneapolis, we have it too but it's mostly Polish and Norweigian and German. In Cleveland, it's Jewish, Polish, Greek, Italian, etc....not unlike Chicago or Detroit and that's the kind of family my mom was raised in and there is a difference. That being said, internationally MSP has become a little mecca -- so to speak -- for immigrants in the past 20 years and now it's pretty international for a Midwestern city of its size. That shouldn't be ignored either, and I know a LOT of people (particularly in the Midwest) don't give MSP the respect it deserves when it comes to things such as size, culture and diversity. After all, it WAS one of the whiter, more non-diverse cities in the country (still is compared to the avg major metro), but it's changed more than most major cities have, albeit, somewhat under the radar maybe.
I agree, I don't think anyone said Minneapolis didn't have ethnic neighborhood and diversity of course it does. I was just stating with no context to racial diversity the ethnic neighborhoods in Cleveland (there are more of European heritage though) are more established just because they've been around longer, Cleveland is older than Minneapolis, even older than Chicago, its immigrant boom started more than two centuries ago, where as Minneapolis still has a influx continuing today. Cleveland's immigrants have left the city along with a lot of the population in recent years though most haven't left the metro area, but the neighborhoods will always remain in Cleveland. Such communities don't even duplicate themselves in the suburbs because the people always come to Cleveland for the neighborhoods.
Minneapolis is a great city. It's such a great place in the summertime! I can sense it's vibrancy everytime I'm there.
In regards to the ethnic parts of Cleveland, I think one difference most people are not communicating is that most of the ethnic areas are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations who still hold to the old traditions. Proof of this may be in a church like St. Stanislaus in Slavic Village where the majority of the people are American born, yet they still say their mass in Polish. Another example is Little Italy. The neighborhood has maybe 20-50 foreign-born italians...HOWEVER, the neighborhood has hundreds and hundreds of latter generation Italian American who run the 15 restuarants, two bakeries, bocci courts, festivals, and park.
My point is, most of the ethnic areas in Cleveland are not foreign born (with exception to Asiatown and the Puerto Rican area)...but are children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the who still retain the traditions. This does not show up in the census and/or of foreign born population. In the metro census, they will be listed as merely "White" (regardless if they are 100% Ukrainian-American, Italian-American, Polish-American...even Jewish, Greek, etc).
Cleveland has ethnic diversity and traditions, and holds it well. The ethnic festivals are a good indication of this:
- Feast of the Assumption (Little Italy)
- Asiatown Festival
- Annunciation Greek Festival
- Columbus Day Parade (Little Italy)
- Jewish Food and Culture Festival
- Romanian Festival
- Harvest Festival (Polish Slavic Village)
- St. Pokrova Ukrainian Festival
- Ukrainian Village Festival @ St. Vladimir Cathedral
- Puerto Rican Festival and Parade
- Egyptian Festival
- St Patrick's Day Parade (300K downtown)
- Armenian Festival
- Hungarian Scout Festival
- Black Culture International Parade and Festival
- Cleveland Thyagaraja Festival (Indian)
- Saints Constantine & Helen Greek Festival
- St. Demetrios Greek Festival
- Italian American Summer Festival
- Cleveland Irish Cultural Festival
Sorry, I went to town with Google!!!
Last edited by usaf_1832; 04-04-2011 at 06:17 PM..
As I said before, that's why I said, really the only way to decide between the two cities would be based on personal preference. As OhAcid pointed out, there is nothing in Cleveland that you can't do in Minneapolis. The same can obviously be said about Cleveland as well. Both offer many of the same things.
The real differentiating factors come down to culture and people in each city.
Minneapolis has a relatively more outdoor recreational culture, a great deal of yuppie and solidly Midwestern. Cleveland is more blue-collar, seems more family and community oriented. Cleveland's own culture within the city varies depending on area, west side is undoubtedly more Midwestern, east side exhibits a more East Coast presence. It's the city where the two regions come together and clash.
It's easy to see how there can be no quick winner between the two when you take it all into context.
Interesting! Can you better describe what you mean by this?
Minneapolis is a great city. It's such a great place in the summertime! I can sense it's vibrancy everytime I'm there.
In regards to the ethnic parts of Cleveland, I think one difference most people are not communicating is that most of the ethnic areas are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations who still hold to the old traditions. Proof of this may be in a church like St. Stanislaus in Slavic Village where the majority of the people are American born, yet they still say their mass in Polish. Another example is Little Italy. The neighborhood has maybe 20-50 foreign-born italians...HOWEVER, the neighborhood has hundreds and hundreds of latter generation Italian American who run the 15 restuarants, two bakeries, bocci courts, festivals, and park.
My point is, most of the ethnic areas in Cleveland are not foreign born (with exception to Asiatown and the Puerto Rican area)...but are children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of the who still retain the traditions. This does not show up in the census and/or of foreign born population. In the metro census, they will be listed as merely "White" (regardless if they are 100% Ukrainian-American, Italian-American, Polish-American...even Jewish, Greek, etc).
Cleveland has ethnic diversity and traditions, and holds it well. The ethnic festivals are a good indication of this:
- Feast of the Assumption (Little Italy)
- Asiatown Festival
- Annunciation Greek Festival
- Columbus Day Parade (Little Italy)
- Jewish Food and Culture Festival
- Romanian Festival
- Harvest Festival (Polish Slavic Village)
- St. Pokrova Ukrainian Festival
- Ukrainian Village Festival @ St. Vladimir Cathedral
- Puerto Rican Festival and Parade
- Egyptian Festival
- St Patrick's Day Parade (300K downtown)
- Armenian Festival
- Hungarian Scout Festival
- Black Culture International Parade and Festival
- Cleveland Thyagaraja Festival (Indian)
- Saints Constantine & Helen Greek Festival
- St. Demetrios Greek Festival
- Italian American Summer Festival
- Cleveland Irish Cultural Festival
Sorry, I went to town with Google!!!
Thank you, you explained it better than I could lol, that was the exact thing I was talking about. A lot of people don't understand the strength of these neighborhoods go much much deeper than ethnic breakdowns on the census.
Interesting! Can you better describe what you mean by this?
The Cleveland region used to be land owned and settled by Connecticut called the Western Reserve. That's why many areas appear to have New England characteristics and East Coast lifestyle, this is most visible on the East side of the city and the eastern suburbs. You're more likely to find the streetcar towns, colonial architecture and tudor mansions, town squares, main streets, mom and pop shops, brick roads, courtyards, forestry, big Jewish presence,etc on the eastern half of the metro. East siders tend to have more widespread appreciation of fine culture, and the east side of the city has all of the museums. Families on the East side send their kids to the expensive and exclusive private schools (I actually know someone whose whole family has attended private schools). A friend of mine from NYC came to visit once and said some areas looked just like what is in Westchester County, New York. The East side is known to be where the old money and wealth is (some of the richest towns in the country are on the East side). It goes without saying East siders can come off as more snobby and reserved than West siders.
Whereas the West side for some reason is more midwestern in character. More present bar and drinking culture, more blue-collar style, Roman Catholic persuasion, etc is more common. With the exception of a few older towns, the West side of the metro is where you'll find more of the freeways, big box chain stores, shopping malls, newer housing, cul-de-sacs and that kind of stuff. Less forestry and more concrete the further west you go whereas on the East side the area becomes more wooded and has an absence of sidewalks the further east you go. West siders are known to be a lot more welcoming and down to earth, they can be just as affluent but tend to be less upscale. They aren't known to have the same appreciation in fine arts and culture as East siders but still enjoy them all the same. Most families send their kids to public schools.
Hope that explained some of it. Northeast Ohio borders Pennsylvania so Cleveland is the region where the East Coast literally meets the Midwest.
Last edited by RioDominicana; 04-04-2011 at 10:36 PM..
The Cleveland region used to be land owned and settled by Connecticut called the Western Reserve. That's why many areas appear to have New England characteristics and East Coast lifestyle, this is most visible on the East side of the city and the eastern suburbs. You're more likely to find the streetcar towns, colonial and tudor mansions, town squares, main streets, mom and pop shops, brick roads, courtyards, big Jewish presence,etc on the eastern half of the metro. East siders also tend to have more of a widespread appreciation of fine culture since the east side of the city has all of the museums. A friend of mine from NYC came to visit once and said some areas looked just like what is in Westchester County, New York. It also goes without saying that the East side is known to be where the old money and wealth is.
Whereas the West side for some reason is more midwestern in character. Bar culture, more blue-collar style, Roman Catholic, etc is more common. Housing wise with the exception of a few towns, the West side of the metro is where you'll find more of the freeways, big box chain stores, shopping malls, newer housing, cul-de-sacs and that kind of stuff.
Hope that explained some of it.
Also, the Western Reserve ended at the Cuyahoga River...so only the present day eastside was part of the Connecticut Western Reserve. This magnifies the east coast influence to the eastside set up. The housing in Cleveland Hts and Shaker Hts really illustrates the strong East Coast influence.
The westside grew more naturally Midwestern. It's important to note is that the westside didn't grow until a few decades after the founding of the city, so all the initial wealth had ready settled on the eastside. Bascially, all the old money endowments created the museums on the eastside, which today is University Circle.
The city limits of Cleveland really is the dividing line between east coast and midwestern cultures.
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