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Even there, Chicago isn't close to comparable to NYC or Paris.
The densest neighborhoods in Chicago have far lower density than core NYC or Paris, and are far more auto-oriented. This is even true in the Gold Coast blocks. The Gold Coast even has higher auto ownership than Brooklyn.
It really depends on how you measure urbanity, but an argument could made that Chicago is slightly more urban than SF or Boston, but the counterargument could also be made. Is urbanity big buildings and huge city (Chicago) or is it more street-level feel and lack of car orientation (SF/Bos).
Well the core of Midtown Manhattan has close to zero population density. So I guess, according to you, it's not very urban?
Well the core of Midtown Manhattan has close to zero population density. So I guess, according to you, it's not very urban?
Midtown Manhattan actually has high population density, but I assume the point you're trying to make is that built density is more important than population density. It's true that Midtown doesn't have the highest population density in NYC, while it does have the highest built density.
If that's how you judge urbanity, then yes, I agree that Chicago (at least in the Loop and surroundings) has comparable density to, say, Paris. It's still nowhere close to Manhattan, though.
To me, urbanity isn't just built density, so I would go more with things like population density, transit orientation, and the like, but I agree that built density plays a role in the discussion.
To take an example, to me, a row of 7 floor, contiguous buildings in Paris, on a very narrow street, with no parking, is far more urban than a wide avenue with 50 floor buildings with setbacks and alleys, and on huge parking podiums. I guess it's different ways of looking at urban forms.
Midtown Manhattan actually has high population density, but I assume the point you're trying to make is that built density is more important than population density. It's true that Midtown doesn't have the highest population density in NYC, while it does have the highest built density.
If that's how you judge urbanity, then yes, I agree that Chicago (at least in the Loop and surroundings) has comparable density to, say, Paris. It's still nowhere close to Manhattan, though.
To me, urbanity isn't just built density, so I would go more with things like population density, transit orientation, and the like, but I agree that built density plays a role in the discussion.
To take an example, to me, a row of 7 floor, contiguous buildings in Paris, on a very narrow street, with no parking, is far more urban than a wide avenue with 50 floor buildings with setbacks and alleys, and on huge parking podiums. I guess it's different ways of looking at urban forms.
No, the box between say 6th Ave and Park and 42nd and 57th - what I call the core of Midtown - has almost no population. And, yes, I agree it's all about how you judge urbnity so there is a subjective element there. But there is no *objective* way for someone to say that there is anything in NY or Paris (or any other city for that matter) that is more urban than the Loop or Magnificent Mile. When you have a skyscraper on every block (together with a very high degree of retail and entertainment density) you can't get much more urban than that.
Midtown Manhattan actually has high population density, but I assume the point you're trying to make is that built density is more important than population density. It's true that Midtown doesn't have the highest population density in NYC, while it does have the highest built density.
If that's how you judge urbanity, then yes, I agree that Chicago (at least in the Loop and surroundings) has comparable density to, say, Paris. It's still nowhere close to Manhattan, though.
To me, urbanity isn't just built density, so I would go more with things like population density, transit orientation, and the like, but I agree that built density plays a role in the discussion.
To take an example, to me, a row of 7 floor, contiguous buildings in Paris, on a very narrow street, with no parking, is far more urban than a wide avenue with 50 floor buildings with setbacks and alleys, and on huge parking podiums. I guess it's different ways of looking at urban forms.
No, the box between say 6th Ave and Park and 42nd and 57th - what I call the core of Midtown - has almost no population. And, yes, I agree it's all about how you judge urbnity so there is a subjective element there. But there is no *objective* way for someone to say that there is anything in NY or Paris (or any other city for that matter) that is significantly more urban than the Loop or Magnificent Mile. When you have a skyscraper on every block (together with a very high degree of retail and entertainment density) you can't get much more urban than that.
No, the box between say 6th Ave and Park and 42nd and 57th - what I call the core of Midtown - has almost no population.
But that isn't the entirety of Midtown. Midtown, as a whole, has high population density. The 3 official community districts that cover Midtown all have high population density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
But there is no *objective* way for someone to say that there is anything in NY or Paris (or any other city for that matter) that is more urban than the Loop or Magnificent Mile. When you have a skyscraper on every block (together with a very high degree of retail and entertainment density) you can't get much more urban than that.
Completely disagree. It's very easy to say that Manhattan and core Paris are far more urban than core Chicago. They're both much denser (both population and buildings), both have far higher ground coverage, and both have far lower car orientation.
What would be your argument for why core Chicago is as urban as core NYC? Even Michigan Ave. is nowhere close to Midtown. You have a wide street with alleys, most buildings have front and back setbacks, the sidewalk has a lawn setback, almost all towers have big parking podiums, and the like. This is unheard of in Paris or Manhattan.
Is there even one building in Paris or Manhattan that sits on a giant parking podium, like 90% of the new highrises around Michigan Ave. in Chicago? Is there even one street with alleys?
As I said, roughly 1.5% of it can be. But the rest no.
Yeah but who cares about 1.5%? If we're just going to start taking blocks of a cities to compare, there will be a lot of comparisons for a lot cities. Not accusing you of this, but on CD, I always get the feeling that people think high density is a good thing in comparison to lighter density. Everyone's different but I know I'd rather deal with less crowded areas than more.
But that isn't the entirety of Midtown. Midtown, as a whole, has high population density. The 3 official community districts that cover Midtown all have high population density.
Completely disagree. It's very easy to say that Manhattan and core Paris are far more urban than core Chicago. They're both much denser (both population and buildings), both have far higher ground coverage, and both have far lower car orientation.
What would be your argument for why core Chicago is as urban as core NYC? Even Michigan Ave. is nowhere close to Midtown. You have a wide street with alleys, most buildings have front and back setbacks, the sidewalk has a lawn setback, almost all towers have big parking podiums, and the like. This is unheard of in Paris or Manhattan.
Is there even one building in Paris or Manhattan that sits on a giant parking podium, like 90% of the new highrises around Michigan Ave. in Chicago? Is there even one street with alleys?
No, the core of Midtown isn't "much" denser than the core of the Loop, by population or building density. I am not even sure that parking podiums (though i do hate them) or alleys necessarily make a place less urban. The metrics you mention do play some role, but I disagree with the notion that they make a place far more urban. We are talking about two places both with extremely high structural, retail and entertainment density. Thats the big picture; what you are talking about is fairly minor details in the grand scheme of things. Slightly more urban perhaps but not far.
No, the core of Midtown isn't "much" denser than the core of the Loop, by population or building density .
By population density there's no debate. We have the Census data. Built density I agree it would be hard to definitively prove, because there's no official data like with population density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
I am not even sure that parking podiums (though i do hate them) or alleys necessarily make a place less urban. The metrics you mention do play some role, but I disagree with the notion that they make a place far more urban. We are talking about two places both with extremely high structural, retail and entertainment density. Thats the big picture; what you are talking about is fairly minor details in the grand scheme of things. Slightly more urban perhaps but not far.
I guess this is where we disagree. To me, these are gigantic details. A 50 floor building with no parking and no setbacks, compared to the same 50 floor building covering twice the land (so half the built density), plus 25% of the building itself is reserved for parking (meaning most of the residents are using the garage, and the "front entrance" is from the garage, not the street).
It's like the difference between SoHo in Manhattan, and Newport, in Jersey City. SoHo has almost no towers, and Newport has a ton of towers, but you have to take a closer look. SoHo, to me, is vastly more urban. I don't care if Newport is a sea of 40-50 floor towers.
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