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odd that at one point you acknowledge that poverty causes these people to become the horrible people that can turn to rape and murder, etc and then later they're just losers that should be laughed at.
Laughing at homosexuality is no more narrow minded than laughing at those who are poor. People are so quick to blame the poor for their own misfortunes. However so many have already lost by the time they are born into the broken homes with rampant drug use and crime and an awful school system which gives them no chance at redemption.
I think the people who should be laughed at are those who trivialize how hard it is to climb out of generational poverty when they themselves have no idea what such a climb feels like as they've never had to do it themselves.
No its my belief that poor people can pursue a solid lifestyle if they work hard for it. Have you heard of Michael Oher? He was the main theme behind the hit film 'Blind Side'. There are thousands of people like him who work on building better lives where the weak give in to the temptations to do wrong and hurt people around them.
Really can you forgive criminals for killing the innocent? I never can which is why I have such harsh things to say about certain places that don't have their act together regarding crime and poverty. Its one thing to say all places have their difficulties but another to see corrupt municipal governments just watch their people slain by these thugs and do nothing about it.
If you leave the negative influences out of your life you develop a will power, if you work hard then money is no object. Hard work through high school and they offer courses to assist you in your studies if you have concerns or questions that need answering. Take the PSAT and SAT, get high marks and scholarships, if not get in somewhere respectable and get financial loans. Money is no object when you wish to educate yourself, there are many people which I'm sure you know of whom have gone from rags to riches because of their dedication and hard work. The degenerates who succumb to a life of crime have had their chance to seek help but didn't take it. They don't belong with the rest of society, these people are cold hearted rapists, killers, thieves, kidnappers, drug abusers. Do you think its funny to shoot five year old children playing in their neighborhoods because you have anger issues? To give them drugs? To rape young children and haunt their lives? To kidnap and take them away from those they care for the most? To destroy families? Get a part time job, wait tables if you have to but earn money and life savings a respectable way not through scum industries such as human trafficking and drug cartels.
As I said, these people don't deserve to live with a normal prospering society and deserve to be kicked out. Their actions speak louder than words and yes its ok to laugh at them, they deserve that for falling to the low classless level. People like Charles Manson are examples of this and the law is correct to keep them locked away from society. The law has a dim view for those that abuse it and harm others and I agree with that wholeheartedly. The United States is a country of opportunities, if you come from a broken family you can still be successful if you work hard at becoming such, hard work defines your character and gives you respect not falling under negative influences. As I said I respect those that come from these struggling backgrounds and make a solid life for themselves, people like Obama or Oprah are examples of that but the ones that succumb to outside pressure and harm others deserve no respect and don't belong with a normal society.
Price them out. I'm not the forgiving kind, any man or woman who has raped, killed, forced drugs, solicited human trafficking, or anything of the like doesn't deserve the respect of a tear enduring, sweating, hard working American. You should laugh at those kinds of people, they deserve public mockery.
I'm really hoping you know the answer to your own question... I don't believe I should have to explain something really, really basic to you.
It is quite basic.
To back up my response, when we compare the 2 CSAs we see that the poverty rate in Philadelphia is relatively low and only slightly higher than the Bay Area. Likewise the percentage of families earning $100,000+ is also very respectable compared to the Bay Area.
My point is that the situation is different in many inner city areas as evidenced by the data below.
Not really difficult to grasp and is common for most of the United States.
No its my belief that poor people can pursue a solid lifestyle if they work hard for it. Have you heard of Michael Oher? He was the main theme behind the hit film "Blind Side". There are thousands of people like him who work on building better lives where the weak give in to the temptations to do wrong and hurt people around them.
Really can you forgive criminals for killing the innocent? I never can which is why I have such harsh things to say about certain places that don't have their act together regarding crime and poverty.
If you leave the negative influences out of your life you develop a will power, if you work hard then money is no object. Ace through high school and they offer courses to assist you in your studies if you have concerns or questions that need answering. Take the PSAT and SAT, get high marks and scholarships, if not get in somewhere respectable and get financial loans. Money is no object when you wish to educate yourself, there are many people which I'm sure you know of whom have gone from rags to riches because of their dedication and hard work.
The degenerates who succumb to a life of crime have had their chance to seek help but didn't take it. They don't belong with the rest of society, these people are cold hearted rapists, killers, thieves, kidnappers, drug abusers. Do you think its funny to shot five year old children playing in their neighborhoods because you have anger issues? To give them drugs? To rape young children and haunt their lives? To kidnap and take them away from those they care for the most? To destroy families?
As I said, these people don't deserve to live with a normal prospering society and deserve to be kicked out. Their actions speak louder than words and yes its ok to laugh at them, they deserve that for falling to the low classless level. People like Charles Manson are examples of this and the law is correct to keep them locked away from society. The law has a dim view for those that abuse it and harm others and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
Have you ever had to rise out of generational poverty? Do you know what it's like to grow up in a broken home? Where you have no father? Where your mother is a drug addict? Living in a neighborhood where the crime is awful and your school provides you with little hope for escape? If you haven't then I don't really think you're in any position to speak to how strong or weak people are who succumbed to the evils of the world that surrounded them.
I think you'd be surprised by how many strong people just aren't strong enough to break that vicious cycle. Do you think the children who grow up in a school district that has 100% HS graduation rate are really that much harder working and intelligent than those who live in inner city ghettos where the graduation rate barely hovers above 30%?
Unless you're one of the people who had strength to rise out of such a nightmare scenario I don't think you're in any position to be calling others "weak".
Anyone who sells drugs to children, who rapes or murders is an awful person. It's hard for most of us to imagine how awful a person would have to be to do such things. But the terrible truth is that if put in the same awful situation at birth a lot of us would be just as terrible.
So it's easier to call these people scum, to think of them as less than human, to laugh at them and say they should be expelled from society. The truth is though is that we aren't as different from them as we'd like to think. So instead of treating these people like second class citizens we should be counting our blessings that we were not put in their shoes at birth. We should be eternally grateful that our character and will wasn't put to the test as theirs was, grateful that we never had to find out that if faced with such terrible situation whether or not we too would become criminals or murderers like they did.
People like Michael Oher who were born into such awful situations and yet none the less still found success should be praised for the ability to find success. But those who were unable to rise out of the awful situations that they were born into should not be laughed at. They should be mourned. And we should all be ashamed that conditions like that exist in this country and work to make them better so that less people in the future would be put through such an awful test at such a young age.
So show a little bit more compassion for the poor and above all be grateful that your moral fortitude will likely never come under any test as severe as many of these kids face multiple times by the time they reach middle school. Someone like Michael Oher, who actually rose out of poverty despite the terrible odds that he faced would be in a position more than you to mock and degrade those who are poor or worse became criminals. He unlike many knows the strength required to rise out of such an awful situation, and is in a unique position to judge those who were not able to do what he did. Although I imagine he would show a lot more compassion for these people than you do... and that should tell you something about the inappropriateness of your views.
Last edited by phillies2011; 10-11-2011 at 11:25 PM..
To back up my response, when we compare the 2 CSAs we see that the poverty rate in Philadelphia is relatively low and only slightly higher than the Bay Area. Likewise the percentage of families earning $100,000+ is also very respectable compared to the Bay Area.
My point is that the situation is different in many inner city areas as evidenced by the data below.
Not really difficult to grasp and is common for most of the United States.
Its interesting that both SF and SJ have lower poverty rates than the Bay Area at large, but that is due to the Bay Area having many suburban cities that are more socio-economically diverse with a higher probability of finding lower income folks in some towns that are otherwise middle class.
Well either gentrification pushed folks out of SF etc and into the burbs or are you suggesting that the poverty is not concentrated in specific areas of Bay (regardless of burbs or the city concentrated poverty is concentrated poverty). If they are (still concentrated in speficic neighborhoods burbs or city) then I would suggest the statement that having an area more socioeconomically diverse would likely be false like the poverty is more spread and less concentrated neighborhood by neighborhood.
Your use of language here appears to soften the activity in the bay like it somehow more integrated than other places and not concentrated to specific neighborhoods within these places. Is that what you mean? Like you are more likely to find the poverty population intersperced in working class neighborhoods? Based on my recollection and understanding of the Bay there were distinct pockets of poverty like just about any other place in the US and from that perspective i do not see how it is somehow more socio-economically diverse or more intersperced with middle class neighborhoods. But again will allow you to clarify
BTW interesting data none-the-less and personally am not at all suprised to see higher poverty rates in the Bay in total than in SF
Have you ever had to rise out of generational poverty? Do you know what it's like to grow up in a broken home? Where you have no father? Where your mother is a drug addict? Living in a neighborhood where the crime is awful and your school provides you with little hope for escape? If you haven't then I don't really think you're in any position to speak to how strong or weak people are who succumbed to the evils of the world that surrounded them.
I think you'd be surprised by how many strong people just aren't strong enough to break that vicious cycle. Do you think the children who grow up in a school district that has 100% HS graduation rate are really that much harder working and intelligent than those who live in inner city ghettos where the graduation rate barely hovers above 30%?
Unless you're one of the people who had strength to rise out of such a nightmare scenario I don't think you're in any position to be calling others "weak".
Anyone who sells drugs to children, who rapes or murders is an awful person. It's hard for most of us to imagine how awful a person would have to be to do such things. But the terrible truth is that if put in the same awful situation at birth a lot of us would be just as terrible.
So it's easier to call these people scum, to think of them as less than human, to laugh at them and say they should be expelled from society. The truth is though is that we aren't as different from them as we'd like to think. So instead of treating these people like second class citizens we should be counting our blessings that we were not put in their shoes at birth. We should be eternally grateful that our character and will wasn't put to the test as theirs was, grateful that we never had to find out that if faced with such terrible odds that we wouldn't become criminals or murderers like they did.
People like Michael Oher who were born into such awful situations and yet none the less still found success should be praised for the ability to find success. But those who were unable to rise out of the awful situations that they were born into should not be laughed at. They should be mourned. And we should all be ashamed that conditions like that exist in this country and work to make them better so that less people in the future would be put through such an awful test at such a young age.
You're giving an excuse for why those from a poverty background do what disparages the community. There are no excuses for harming anyone, why would you defend that position.
Ordinarily I don't like to get personal in my posts and involve my personal life with but yes I can somewhat relate the difficulties of growing up in similar environments. My father was an alcoholic abuser and separated from my mother when I was at the age of a toddler, so my mother had to shift roles of doing both parents jobs and a career while raising myself and my sister. I wouldn't say we grew up in poverty but were likely lower middle class, with enough to get by but nothing more for further expenses. My mothers career was soft and led to a lot of difficulties when managing time and raising children, she couldn't afford sitters nor tutors. My sister and I had to pursue our lives the old fashion way, one step at a time and get through high school with high marks and enough to make our mother proud. Mother couldn't exactly afford to send us to great schools but we were still able to do so by scholarships and financial aid. Throughout high school we would assure our ranks by staying after and being more involved with the activities the school offered and getting help for classes that we struggled in. In college I got a part time job to help alleviate my mother on her expenses and after college I pursued studies further with a graduate degree then began my career. It was an entry position at first but after 3 years I moved on and have been well off since then, have helped my family, and have helped my community as much as possible in the process.
Now my situation isn't exactly being raised by a heroin abuser like the broken families you describe but I have a feel of what your saying. If you wish to educate yourself and pursue a normal life then help will be given to you, money is not an object its just an excuse to get lazy and steer your life the wrong way.
School systems that have awful standings do not so because they don't try to redeem their image and offer quality education but do so because they waste money trying to educate a mass that's already given up. The problems aren't the schools but the households where children join gangs and live a life of violence, they disrupt the entire community. It only takes a few people to poisonously ruin a neighborhood for good. Schools lack incentives to keep children in attendance and that's the fault of corruptly run municipal and county regulators not the schools nor families affected. As a tax paying American I'm more than displeased with where my money goes, my state reaches a deficit of return cash from given cash to the federal government to fund welfare and government assistance living for the poor and degenerate in other states who have no ambition of steering their lives in the proper direction.
As I stated before, poverty is an in most cases an abomination and it leads to larger problems as the poverty driven become degenerative and scums. The mindset is to blame, instead of wanting a higher quality of life they become selfish and take what's important to others and going as far as sometimes taking lives. I don't forgive those kinds of people nor do I feel anything but apathy for them. I feel no sorrow that places price them out and force them to move some place else, and good riddance to them. I'm proud that DC is pricing them out, although many head to PGC that too is becoming priced out and they're moving out of the metro more rapidly.
I don't have respect for the mindset most poor people have because they opt for lives of crime and corruption. I don't have compassion for them nor will I ever have that, as I stated those that grow in poverty have the choice of amending their lives even though its a road less traveled and a very hard journey, very very hard but the result is a respectable one. The ones that fall victim to the cycle lead their lives in corruption and doing heroin, crack, PCP or other drugs and forcing your children onto that and giving up to the temptations for that while living a life of crime isn't respectable. Again I ask, how can you forgive someone who has the intentions of harming another person? Is that ok in your book? That is not cool nor should it be given an excuse
A five year old is shot playing with a four square ball in his neighborhood in south Chicago after coming back home from school by a degenerate gang initiate who has to prove himself to the others by killing the first person he see's in their territory.
The gang member rather than joining a gang to fund his lifestyle could have pursued a part time job as a waiter and built his finances from scratch the respectable way but he took the degenerate route out and because of his decision lives have been shed. There's no forgiving these actions nor should there be any excuses defending them. You have a choice of what you wish to do with your life and when you're a threat to society you deserve what's given to you being priced out and relocated far away.
Should the gang member be forgiven for what he's done? What about the family of the slain child? Should they live their lives punished because of the actions of another person who drifted to a life of crime as an excuse to fallout of poverty? Do you support the lax behavior the municipal government shows to increase in crime such as these?
Respect isn't given its earned, cleaning up your act and destroying corruption, lowering crime, improving education, improving humanitary conditions is how you gain respect.
You're giving an excuse for why those from a poverty background do what disparages the community. There are no excuses for harming anyone, why would you defend that position.
Ordinarily I don't like to get personal in my posts and involve my personal life with but yes I can somewhat relate the difficulties of growing up in similar environments. My father was an alcoholic abuser and separated from my mother when I was at the age of a toddler, so my mother had to shift roles of doing both parents jobs and a career while raising myself and my sister. I wouldn't say we grew up in poverty but were likely lower middle class, with enough to get by but nothing more for further expenses. My mothers career was soft and led to a lot of difficulties when managing time and raising children, she couldn't afford sitters nor tutors. My sister and I had to pursue our lives the old fashion way, one step at a time and get through high school with high marks and enough to make our mother proud. Mother couldn't exactly afford to send us to great schools but we were still able to do so by scholarships and financial aid. Throughout high school we would assure our ranks by staying after and being more involved with the activities the school offered and getting help for classes that we struggled in. In college I got a part time job to help alleviate my mother on her expenses and after college I pursued studies further with a graduate degree then began my career. It was an entry position at first but after 3 years I moved on and have been well off since then, have helped my family, and have helped my community as much as possible in the process.
Now my situation isn't exactly being raised by a heroin abuser like the broken families you describe but I have a feel of what your saying. If you wish to educate yourself and pursue a normal life then help will be given to you, money is not an object its just an excuse to get lazy and steer your life the wrong way.
School systems that have awful standings do not so because they don't try to redeem their image and offer quality education but do so because they waste money trying to educate a mass that's already given up. The problems aren't the schools but the households where children join gangs and live a life of violence, they disrupt the entire community. It only takes a few people to poisonously ruin a neighborhood for good. Schools lack incentives to keep children in attendance and that's the fault of corruptly run municipal and county regulators not the schools nor families affected. As a tax paying American I'm more than displeased with where my money goes, my state reaches a deficit of return cash from given cash to the federal government to fund welfare and government assistance living for the poor and degenerate in other states who have no ambition of steering their lives in the proper direction.
As I stated before, poverty is an in most cases an abomination and it leads to larger problems as the poverty driven become degenerative and scums. The mindset is to blame, instead of wanting a higher quality of life they become selfish and take what's important to others and going as far as sometimes taking lives. I don't forgive those kinds of people nor do I feel anything but apathy for them. I feel no sorrow that places price them out and force them to move some place else, and good riddance to them. I'm proud that DC is pricing them out, although many head to PGC that too is becoming priced out and they're moving out of the metro more rapidly.
I don't have respect for the mindset most poor people have because they opt for lives of crime and corruption. I don't have compassion for them nor will I ever have that, as I stated those that grow in poverty have the choice of amending their lives even though its a road less traveled and a very hard journey, very very hard but the result is a respectable one. The ones that fall victim to the cycle lead their lives in corruption and doing heroin, crack, PCP or other drugs and forcing your children onto that and giving up to the temptations for that while living a life of crime isn't respectable. Again I ask, how can you forgive someone who has the intentions of harming another person? Is that ok in your book? That is not cool nor should it be given an excuse
Your situation was indeed difficult growing up and honestly not all that dissimilar from mine. Although thankfully both of my parents were not addicted to drugs nor alcohol and were very supportive. My mom got pregnant with myself and my twin sister when she was only 17 and so she never finished high school. My dad was 18 when we were born and was unable to go to college despite doing fairly well in school because he now had children to support. He's been working for the electric company for the past 30 years almost now, there were massive layoffs all throughout my childhood though and our family was in constant fear that my dad would lose his job. Even though he never did, there were times when he was only able to get a part time schedule. Growing up we had financial difficulties, I did not live in a neighborhood that was good initially and by the time i was in highschool it was a total warzone. I had to get my first job at the age of 14, and have worked ever since then, all throughout high school, college, and grad school. I am very proud of the success I have been able to obtain in life and know that I work VERY hard to achieve it.
At the same time though, although I know my intelligence and hardworking attitude have been essential in my success, I can't help at the same time to feel as though sheer luck is the biggest reason I am who I am instead of criminal or a drug dealer. As hard as my life was, there was (almost) always food on my table, there were NEVER drugs in my home, and I always had to supportive parents to lean back on.
I know how incredibly difficult it was to rise out of poverty even with two supportive parents and household that was drug free. I shudder to think how much more difficult it would have been if I grew up with neither of these assets. Most of my neighbors that I grew up with are not successful today, some are in jail, some are dead. I'd like to think that I succeeded where they did not, but I KNOW some of them had it ALOT harder than even I did and I simply don't know if I could have succeeded if put into their position.
I am grateful that I was never put in a position worse than the one I grew up in. I know I am a strong man, but some of the situations kids are born into require an almost inhuman strength to survive. That's why I will NEVER mock those people who are poor. Some are just terrible people, some are just lazy, but most of them I feel are just like me... only not as lucky.
I don't excuse anyone who becomes a criminal. I don't excuse anyone who is a rapist or a murder. No matter what their circumstances were, their actions are inexcusable. I do not however mock or laugh at them. I have nothing but the deepest pity for them.
You are in a better position to judge those who do not succeed than most. But again unless you have been in these truly awful positions and still found success I really don't think you are in any position to judge.
A five year old is shot playing with a four square ball in his neighborhood in south Chicago after coming back home from school by a degenerate gang initiate who has to prove himself to the others by killing the first person he see's in their territory.
The gang member rather than joining a gang to fund his lifestyle could have pursued a part time job as a waiter and built his finances from scratch the respectable way but he took the degenerate route out and because of his decision lives have been shed. There's no forgiving these actions nor should there be any excuses defending them. You have a choice of what you wish to do with your life and when you're a threat to society you deserve what's given to you being priced out and relocated far away.
Should the gang member be forgiven for what he's done? What about the family of the slain child? Should they live their lives punished because of the actions of another person who drifted to a life of crime as an excuse to fallout of poverty? Do you support the lax behavior the municipal government shows to increase in crime such as these?
Respect isn't given its earned, cleaning up your act and destroying corruption, lowering crime, improving education, improving humanitary conditions is how you gain respect.
what was done to that child is sick. I certainly don't condone these actions, nor do I excuse them. See what I have written above.
I don't excuse anyone who becomes a criminal. I don't excuse anyone who is a rapist or a murder. No matter what their circumstances were, their actions are inexcusable. I do not however mock or laugh at them. I have nothing but the deepest pity for them.
In my belief anything less than respect is a mockery, whether its laughter, pity, or writing them off as travesties its all meant in the same gesture, which is to disrespect them. The disrespect is validated for what their actions have led them to do.
The most enlightening years of my life were the 6 years I spent in Boston for college. I didn't want to leave Boston and I can understand why its as respected of a place as it is, its not the density, transit, economy, or urban nature of Boston but the humanitary benefit of living there. Every place has its ghettos but Boston is very controlled, safe, affluent, and ambitious. That's the road DC is headed now, when I grew up in the 80's it was at the time known as the murder capital and has since reduced its violence to a third of what it was and only continues to get better. For the longest time I held nothing but disrespect for DC and wasn't until the previous 8 years where I began liking and beginning to respect it for what its becoming.
Posts on this forum can be deluded, great cities aren't derived from how they're built, their climate, nor their topography but derived from their humanitary services. Cities where its safer, more ambitious, and more opportunistic to live and cherish your prolonged life, I respect them.
When I see certain cities that haven't improved enough or shown signs to improve they disturb me. Chicago for example, its corruption is out of control even with crime dropping its proposed nothing to contain the violent crime. It's the most violent place I've ever heard of and seen, when you visit certain parts of Chicago its inhumane how those people are living and having lived in DC, Boston, and Miami I've never seen such horrific places in any of the three as I have in Chicago when I accidentally took the L south. One can only hope that city changes its fortunes for the better, saying its a great city and mocking places like Atlanta or Dallas for their problems is hypocritical of Chicagoans as those cities do a far superior job of maintaining the most important part of the city, the lives of its people. I'm not one to talk since DC is still not that good but its shown its getting better and very fast and it is because its pricing its problems away and those that live here it is a more promising and safer place now.
In my belief anything less than respect is a mockery, whether its laughter, pity, or writing them off as travesties its all meant in the same gesture, which is to disrespect them. The disrespect is validated for what their actions have led them to do.
The most enlightening years of my life were the 6 years I spent in Boston for college. I didn't want to leave Boston and I can understand why its as respected of a place as it is, its not the density, transit, economy, or urban nature of Boston but the humanitary benefit of living there. Every place has its ghettos but Boston is very tame and controlled, safe, affluent, and ambitious. That's the road DC is headed now, when I grew up in the 80's it was at the time known as the murder capital and has since reduced its violence to a third of what it was and only continues to get better. For the longest time I held nothing but disrespect for DC and wasn't until the previous 8 years where I began liking and beginning to respect it for what its becoming.
When I read posts on this forum I find the topics deluded, great cities aren't derived from how they're built, their climate, nor their topography but derived from their humanitary services. Cities where its safer, more ambitious, and more opportunistic to live and cherish your prolonged life, I always respect them.
Pitying someone is demeaning them, but it is hardly in the same way that laughing at them is. To laugh and demean those not as fortunate as you is displaying the same type of lack of empathy that aids those unfortunate people on their path to being criminals.
Boston has less crime than most developed cities but that has a lot less to do with any decisions the city has made as much as the city has just been fortunate in how poverty, drug use, and gang violence has historically affected the city. Also while Boston isn't exactly Detroit, Boston's ghettos are VERY dangerous, Boston's rate of violent crimes per 100,000 people place it squarely among the 25 most dangerous cities in america.
DC also is hard to credit too much for turn around. It's secrete to reducing it's crime rate isn't exactly a secrete... TONS of money have been pumped into the city and it has been pretty heavily gentrified pushing poor people out and thus lowering the crime rate. Still though the violent crime rate in DC is still among the top 10 in the country and is actually HIGHER than philadelphia's rate.
Make no mistake neither Boston nor DC has figured out some magical way to stop poverty or the violence that accompanies it. This is a problem that still negatively affects all big cities in this country. A problem that will not be solved by disregarding the poor and the criminal class of this country and casting them as losers and people to be laughed at. They are not so different from you and I.
It is only by the grace of god that we did not find ourselves in the positions that they did and while it may be true that you are one of the people who could overcome all odds and would never descend to hurting other people, the truth is that chances are you are not. The truth is no matter how resilient you are, at some point there is a breaking point. At some point the situation you were born into would be too extreme to overcome. At some point you would give up or turn to a life a crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Debs
While there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
Last edited by phillies2011; 10-12-2011 at 12:57 AM..
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