Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Funny you mentioned Law, another area where philly would probably surpass Chicago, Philly continues to be home to some of the most important law firms in the nation (In fact many attribute the concentration of lawyers in the city with the reason why Center City Philadelphia has the highest percentage of residents with post graduate degrees of any city in the US. You cant spit and not hit a lawyer in Center City Philly
You are wrong. Chicago has a much bigger and more important legal market (due in large part of course to its strong financial sector and dominant position in the middle of the country).
It's certainly got more large, sophisticated corporate law firms (Kirkland & Ellis, Sidley Austin, and Mayer Brown are each bigger and more prominent than any law firm in Philly - sorry to burst your bubble).
Chicago has got two top law schools in the country and 4 in top 75. UofC law school has been viewed traditionally on par with Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Philly has got one top law school, and 2 in top 75.
Also, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago is one of the most powerful and influential in the nation (together with the DC, 2nd circuit (NY) and 9th (CA)). The 3rd circuit in Philly is not nearly as important.
So this one is not even close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Also on research funding, top research institutions Philly would also surpass
Chicago (Penn, Temple, Univ of Del, Drexel) are all very large top tier research institutions. Villanova is one of the most prominent schools in all of Wall Street (Actually more common a degree than even Wharton at Penn). But again we can again to disagree on this topic I am sure many would dispute (and not just people from Philly) and very likely more would argue it surpasses Chicago.
This is all fine and should be considered, but at the end of the day Chicago's combo of UofC and NW is hard to beat. There are only four metro areas in the country with at least two elite universities - top ranked for undergrad, most graduate fields and research. Chicago is one of them, Philly isn't. UOfC is a top ten university in the world. It is a hugely important research
institution that has had a staggering number of Nobel prize laureates on it's faculty (which is a little more important than where MLK was educated, no disrespect). I know this is not the only criterion that should be considered but it's a big one.
In terms of top notch quality Philly has an ivy league school. It also has 2 or 3 great liberal arts colleges, but they are tiny and have no graduate programs. You'd need 10 to 20 of them to get anywhere close to the size, resources and influence of a major university.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Philly along with SF and NYC are often widely discssed as the second best cities for higher education, Chicago is not typically in the discussion for number
two, though to me very good, just a step below
I would actually love to find out if there was a ranking ever made for this. I could be wrong on this one, and if so I am happy to concede this point.
And btw kidphilly - just because I am challenging your persistent claims of Philly's superiority does not mean that I am being dismissive. I am the one who keeps saying that this is open to debate while you keep proclaiming that Philly is superior (sometimes with less than convincing evidence). And yet you call me dismissive. Please dont turn into one of those insecure Philly boosters.
Last edited by Fitzrovian; 11-29-2011 at 09:13 PM..
Regarding higher education -- as has been discussed in past threads -- I think a reasonable conclusion had been reached that Chicago tops Philadelphia in terms of national research universities, whereas Philly clearly excels over Chicago in terms of smaller liberal arts colleges and more specialized educational institutions. That's not to say both cities do not make a strong showing in both categories. However, the aforementioned areas are where both cities tend to do better than the other in terms of higher education.
So, in terms of quality, it's fair to call it a draw. However, factoring in quantity, metro Philly has approximately 101 institutions of higher education in its metro, whereas metro Chicago has approximately 87. Especially when you factor in population differences, I think it's pretty clear that the Philly metro is has the edge in higher education.
Campus Philly :: Research (http://www.campusphilly.org/articles.nsf/pages/research.html - broken link)
Fair enough. I personally would put more weight on national research universities than liberal arts colleges and specialized schools for reasons I explained above. But I guess that's open to debate.
Also, I have assumed that we are going mano-a-mano in these comparisons, without factoring in the population difference. If we "scale up" Philly to account for its smaller size, then obviously it becomes a different comparison. But then again, if you talk to the Philly boosters they will tell you the two cities are comparable in size
There is no emotion. It's just that you expressed an opinion but used pretty weak supporting evidence. At least kidphilly's responses have substance - which I appreciate -- whereas you just list raw data.
We agree and disagree. As for the disagreement, I do see quite a lot of emotion and condescension in many of your posts (eye of the beholder, perhaps?). For example:
Quote:
Are you out of your mind?
Quote:
Lol... You lot will never stop. Case closed.
Quote:
You are wrong.
Quote:
No thanks, I am not retarded.
As for the agreement: I also feel agree that KP's posts for the most part have substance. I would say the same for several of yours. Many of your arguments are weak and flippant, however which undermines those that have some weight.
Finally, I am satisfied with the data I use to form my opinions. If you are not so be it.
I am glad you've read so many of my posts, jm02. Though I wish you had provided some context to these quotes which would show that these remarks were followed by plenty of substance, and if I was being flippant it was well deserved. If I think someone is being dumb, I will call them on it. Sorry if it offends people.
Regarding higher education -- as has been discussed in past threads -- I think a reasonable conclusion had been reached that Chicago tops Philadelphia in terms of national research universities, whereas Philly clearly excels over Chicago in terms of smaller liberal arts colleges and more specialized educational institutions. That's not to say both cities do not make a strong showing in both categories. However, the aforementioned areas are where both cities tend to do better than the other in terms of higher education.
So, in terms of quality, it's fair to call it a draw. However, factoring in quantity, metro Philly has approximately 101 institutions of higher education in its metro, whereas metro Chicago has approximately 87. Especially when you factor in population differences, I think it's pretty clear that the Philly metro is has the edge in higher education.
There is too much rural wetland and wilderness between Atlantic City and Philly.
Although Less than the large accumulation of rural farmland connecting Chicago to metro areas in Indiana and its western metro parameters( dekalb-grundy) and good lord the Indiana counties are a joke. But they get counted in Chicagos metro which boosts its population from the 8 M range to 9.5 M- 10 M range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
It's a lot more than 50 miles to Binghamton, NY from Philly. You won't even make Scranton.
You were confused. It was sidenote for comparisons sake. Chicagos N-S metro boundaries would be equivalent of a 50-60 mile wide swath from Philadelphia to Binghamton NY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
15 miles to Allentown??..try again it's much further away. Lot's of rural areas going northward towards Allentown. All these areas have many farms in between. Nice try
Don't believe me I can submit some pics of these areas as I travel them a lot.
Again you misread my statement. I believe I said that hubs in suburban Philly are within 15 miles of Allentown(Lehigh Valley). There are rural areas interspersed just as there are in metro Chicago but that doesnt prevent Chicago from being afforded an extra 2 M in scattered population. Thats why I argue that if Philadelphias metro spanned 10,000 sq mi like Chicagos the populations of the 2 regions would be incredibly close.
Aurora Il- 42 miles from Chicago. Population density 3,700 ppsqmi.
Dekalb Il-65 miles from Chi. Population density 3,000
Both are a part of metro Chicago.
Quakertown Pa- 40 miles from Philly. population density 5,000
Allentown Pa-60 miles from Philly. poulation density 6,600
Quakertown is part of metro Philly. Allentown is not although it takes a mere 13 minutes to get from Quakertown to Allentown. Allentown MSA is 1 M people.
You are wrong. Chicago has a much bigger and more important legal market (due in large part of course to its strong financial sector and dominant position in the middle of the country).
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
It's certainly got more large, sophisticated corporate law firms (Kirkland & Ellis, Sidley Austin, and Mayer Brown are each bigger and more prominent than any law firm in Philly - sorry to burst your bubble).
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
UofC law school has been viewed traditionally on par with Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
No. Just look at the number of SCOTUS clerks hired from Yale each year. Despite Yale's smaller size, more of its students are landing prized clerkships in the most prized circuit and district courts. Harvard (which is much bigger than UC) pumps out SCOTUS clerks and Justices unlike any other school. So I'd say Harvard and Yale are in their own class (people admitted to both could really make a decision between the two based on the flip of a coin). Then Stanford and Columbia. Chicago and Penn are pretty similar from a prestige perspective. Then UVA and NYU. Followed up by Georgetown, Boalt, Michigan and Cornell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
Also, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago is one of the most powerful and influential in the nation (together with the DC, 2nd circuit (NY) and 9th (CA)). The 3rd circuit in Philly is not nearly as important.
I don't know why you'd think the 7th Cir. is more important than the 3rd when Delaware (and all of its corporations) sit in the 3rd Cir.
No. Just look at the number of SCOTUS clerks hired from Yale each year. Despite Yale's smaller size, more of its students are landing prized clerkships in the most prized circuit and district courts. Harvard (which is much bigger than UC) pumps out SCOTUS clerks and Justices unlike any other school. So I'd say Harvard and Yale are in their own class (people admitted to both could really make a decision between the two based on the flip of a coin). Then Stanford and Columbia. Chicago and Penn are pretty similar from a prestige perspective. Then UVA and NYU. Followed up by Georgetown, Boalt, Michigan and Cornell.
Negative, chief. Traditionally, University of Chicago has been viewed as the equal of Yale, Harvard and Stanford (with Columbia following close behind). It still enjoys lofty reputation (particularly in academia) and its reputational scores continue to be at the level of Harvard/Yale/Stanford, though its USN&WR ranking has slipped in the last decade to anywhere from 4 to 6 as the "super elite" group has expanded to also include NYU and Columbia.
In terms of the pecking order, right now, you've got the top 6 (which is firmly set) and top 14 (also firmly set)... Then everyone else. Some might further subdivide the top 6, based on recent rankings, between the top 3 (Yale, Harvard, Stanford) and 4-6 (UofC, Columbia and NYU) -- depending on who you ask (their employment opportunities are roughly the same, but you are right that SC judges seem to have develped a preference for Harvard and Yale).
In the last 13-14 years no school from 4-6 has penetrated the top 3, and no school from 7-14 has penetrated the top 6 (although there's been a lot of random and inconsequential shifiting around within those groups).
So no, UofChicago and Penn are not (and never have been) on the same level, and neither are NYU and UVA (though that's a more recent trend as NYU has firmly implanted itself into the top 6).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't know why you'd think the 7th Cir. is more important than the 3rd when Delaware (and all of its corporations) sit in the 3rd Cir.
In terms of corporate law and bankruptcy it may be (I am not sure to be honest). But overall it's not. Richard Posner who is probably the most renowned and influential circuit court judge of the last 30 years sits on the 7th circuit.
Last edited by Fitzrovian; 11-30-2011 at 12:39 PM..
You are wrong. Chicago has a much bigger and more important legal market (due in large part of course to its strong financial sector and dominant position in the middle of the country).
It's certainly got more large, sophisticated corporate law firms (Kirkland & Ellis, Sidley Austin, and Mayer Brown are each bigger and more prominent than any law firm in Philly - sorry to burst your bubble).
Chicago has got two top law schools in the country and 4 in top 75. UofC law school has been viewed traditionally on par with Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Philly has got one top law school, and 2 in top 75.
Also, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago is one of the most powerful and influential in the nation (together with the DC, 2nd circuit (NY) and 9th (CA)). The 3rd circuit in Philly is not nearly as important.
So this one is not even close.
This is all fine and should be considered, but at the end of the day Chicago's combo of UofC and NW is hard to beat. There are only four metro areas in the country with at least two elite universities - top ranked for undergrad, most graduate fields and research. Chicago is one of them, Philly isn't. UOfC is a top ten university in the world. It is a hugely important research
institution that has had a staggering number of Nobel prize laureates on it's faculty (which is a little more important than where MLK was educated, no disrespect). I know this is not the only criterion that should be considered but it's a big one.
In terms of top notch quality Philly has an ivy league school. It also has 2 or 3 great liberal arts colleges, but they are tiny and have no graduate programs. You'd need 10 to 20 of them to get anywhere close to the size, resources and influence of a major university.
I would actually love to find out if there was a ranking ever made for this. I could be wrong on this one, and if so I am happy to concede this point.
And btw kidphilly - just because I am challenging your persistent claims of Philly's superiority does not mean that I am being dismissive. I am the one who keeps saying that this is open to debate while you keep proclaiming that Philly is superior (sometimes with less than convincing evidence). And yet you call me dismissive. Please dont turn into one of those insecure Philly boosters.
I've never heard nor seen the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals described as being anything other than a Circuit Court of Appeals; its never been described as ''activist'' etc. The other circuits you mention are in fact ''important'' circuits; the 7th is just as important, no more or less, as all the others.
Negative, chief. Traditionally, University of Chicago has been viewed as the equal of Yale, Harvard and Stanford (with Columbia following close behind).
By whom? I take it you're a student at UofC Law School. If given the chance, 99 percent of UofC students would bail for Harvard and Yale. Judges think they're better. Law firms think they're better. Law professors think they're better. This really shouldn't even be a discussion. Chicago hasn't even had a Supreme Court Justice. Six of our current Justices attended HLS (including Ginsburg, even though she finished Columbia). The other three finished Yale. Again, Chicago has had NONE. So how could you possibly conclude that Chicago is on the same level as Harvard and Yale?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
