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As I was very clear in explaining, the current pecking order among the top 6 is 3 + 3 (H/Y/S followed by UofC/Col/NYU). So you are right that at the moment Harvard and Yale are marginally ahead of Chicago.
But that's a fairly recent phenomenon (last 10-15 years). For most of the post-war period Chicago was seen, by people who know the subject, as equal with H/Y/S. Columbia was also right there or close behind.
Even now, although Chicago has consistently trailed Harvard and Yale in the rankings in recent years (and you are right that most people would probably opt for H/Y over UofC), their reputational scores are essentially the same.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I take it you're a student at UofC Law School.
I am not. But something tells me I know about law schools a little more than you do.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
If given the chance, 99 percent of UofC students would bail for Harvard and Yale. Judges think they're better. Law firms think they're better. Law professors think they're better. This really shouldn't even be a discussion.
Nonsense. Yes, Yale is heavily prized by recruiters because the class size is so small and it's the most selective law school in the nation. But otherwise the top 6 schools are pretty interchangeable when it comes to recruiting... No law firm, not one, will pick a candidate from Harvard or Stanford over Chicago (or Columbia or NYU for that matter) purely on the basis of school. Once you get into that stratosphere, decisions are made based on the candidate's other attributes.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Chicago hasn't even had a Supreme Court Justice. Six of our current Justices attended HLS (including Ginsburg, even though she finished Columbia). The other three finished Yale. Again, Chicago has had NONE. So how could you possibly conclude that Chicago is on the same level as Harvard and Yale?
This is just one stat. On most others, Chicago consistently scores in the top 3 or 4 in the country. They are all basically in the same group of super elite schools (although law students will of course spend hours nitpicking over this and that to prove that one is better than the other).
One thing is for sure for purposes of this discussion: UPenn, while a terrific law school (and a solid top 10-14), can not be included in that group.
Philadelphia is much more down-to-earth than Chicago and that's the main reason people see it as a more important city. Philly has been around long enough that it no longer has to use ego as a crutch.
Chicago does not have a school with the same reputation as Penn, either.
Even now, although Chicago has consistently trailed Harvard and Yale in the rankings in recent years (and you are right that most people would probably opt for H/Y over UofC), their reputational scores are essentially the same.
"Reputational scores?" Harvard has a much better reputation than Chicago, period. It's not even close. It doesn't even matter what any surveys say.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
I am not. But something tells me I know about law schools a little more than you do.
What makes you think that? Do you think you're the only person who has ever gone to law school?
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
Nonsense. Yes, Yale is heavily prized by recruiters because the class size is so small and it's the most selective law school in the nation. But otherwise the top 6 schools are pretty interchangeable when it comes to recruiting... No law firm, not one, will pick a candidate from Harvard or Stanford over Chicago (or Columbia or NYU for that matter) purely on the basis of school. Once you get into that stratosphere, decisions are made based on the candidate's other attributes.
That's not true. Recruiters will recruit deeper into classes at Harvard and Yale than they will at Chicago. There's also a monumental difference for those looking to teach law.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
This is just one stat. On most others, Chicago consistently scores in the top 3 or 4 in the country. They are all basically in the same group of super elite schools (although law students will of course spend hours nitpicking over this and that to prove that one is better than the other).
Students nitpick between Harvard and Yale. A student will be more inclined to choose Harvard if he or she wants to go the law firm route; Yale if the student is more inclined to go the academic route. But most students are not going to nitpick between Harvard and Stanford. And they're definitely not going to nitpick between Harvard and Chicago. Again, most Chicago students probably wish they were at Harvard or Yale. That's not true the other way around.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
One thing is for sure for purposes of this discussion: UPenn, while a terrific law school (and a solid top 10-14), can not be included in that group.
They both have the same number of SCOTUS justices: 0. What makes you think Chicago is "super-elite?" Please stop kidding yourself.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 11-30-2011 at 03:23 PM..
Philadelphia is much more down-to-earth than Chicago and that's the main reason people see it as a more important city. Philly has been around long enough that it no longer has to use ego as a crutch.
Chicago does not have a school with the same reputation as Penn, either.
Well it just doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
They both have the same number of SCOTUS justices: 0. What makes you think Chicago is "super-elite" but not Penn? Please stop kidding yourself.
By that logic, Chicago is also on the same level as Pepperdine or Touro. Stop to think about it, I guess Howard then has a better law school than Chicago as they had one SC Justice!
Listen, I don't need to spend anymore time on this with you. I've said all there is to say. I suggest that you pick up and read the last USN&WR... then the previous five or ten. Do some research. Then come back to me.
Well it just doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.
Seem? Saying that Chicago is on Yale's level is like saying Arnold & Porter is on Cravath's level. Good firm, but not even in the same ball park. You're talking about a whole different level of prestige, buddy.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
By that logic, Chicago is also on the same level as Pepperdine or Touro. Stop to think about it, I guess Howard then has a better law school than Chicago as they had one SC Justice!
No. It's just not on the same level as Harvard and Yale. Clearly, the logic games were not your strong suit on the LSAT.
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Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
Listen, I don't need to spend anymore time on this with you. I've said all there is to say. I suggest that you pick up and read the last USN&WR... then the previous five or ten. Do some research. Then come back to me.
For what? To see that Harvard, Yale and Stanford consistently outrank Chicago? In the real world, the rankings are really like this:
Super Elites: Yale/Harvard Elites: Stanford/Columbia Excellent: Chicago/Penn Damned Good: UVA/NYU/Penn (hovers between two categories, but it's an Ivy, so its prestige factor is high) Good: Michigan/Georgetown/Cornell
Last edited by BajanYankee; 11-30-2011 at 03:45 PM..
No. It's just not on the same level as Harvard and Yale. Clearly, the logic games were not your strong suit on the LSAT.
Pot calling the kettle black? According to you, the number of SCOTUS justices is a key criterion for the quality and reputation of a law school. Wouldn't that have to mean that Howard is better than both Chicago and Penn then? Or did I miss something?
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Super Elites: Yale/Harvard Elites: Stanford/Columbia Excellent: Chicago/Penn Damned Good: UVA/NYU/Penn (hovers between two categories, but it's an Ivy, so its prestige factor is high) Good: Michigan/Georgetown/Cornell
I was really hoping you wouldn't repeat this dumb list. But let it stay there for posterity as the Authoritative BajanYankee Law School Ranking. That's okay, I doubt anyone has discussed (or cares to discuss) law schools on this forum in so much detail, so you might be safe.
Pot calling the kettle black? According to you, the number of SCOTUS justices is a key criterion for the quality and reputation of a law school. Wouldn't that have to mean that Howard is better than both Chicago and Penn then? Or did I miss something?
Yep. You missed something. Harvard and Yale have something in common: multiple Supreme Court justices.
Chicago has none. Zero. Zilch. If Chicago were clearly "super elite," then wouldn't it have at least ONE Supreme Court Justice? It's like Californians on this Board claiming that L.A. and SF belong right up there with New York and London, but yet Sotheby's and Christie's don't have art showrooms in L.A. and SF (this is just one example). That fact, however, does not place L.A. and SF on the same level as Memphis. They're just not on the "super elite" level that NYC's on.
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