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I'd say Lower Queen Anne, the adjacent part to DT, is definitely an urban area.
Also, there's no way that International District, Pioneer Square, Belltown and Capitol Hill are all within 3 square miles. Even the image below, which doesn't include Capitol Hill (what the map refers to as "Pike-Pine" is considered to be only a small portion of Capitol Hill), is more than 3 square miles. And this map DOESN'T include adjacent neighborhoods Lower Queen Anne, South Lake Union/Cascade, and Capitol Hill (which goes all the way up to Roy and out to 19th):
Actually I think we are actually in agreement if you read back and all the numbers line up based on what I was discussing. So yes QA is further from the Center of the DT than is Passyunk Sq for example. PS is still at 30K ppsm while QA is like 12K overall, and no I dont find QA as urban as PS but again as stated prior that very well may be preffered to some or many regardless the population close to DT Seattle and Philly are dramtically different, was my point on these neighborhoods. Or No Libs as an example is more urban or UCity as other examples of nabes that are next set in the respective cities.
Actually I think we are actually in agreement if you read back and all the numbers line up based on what I was discussing. So yes QA is further from the Center of the DT than is Passyunk Sq for example. PS is still at 30K ppsm while QA is like 12K overall, and no I dont find QA as urban as PS but again as stated prior that very well may be preffered to some or many regardless the population close to DT Seattle and Philly are dramtically different, was my point on these neighborhoods. Or No Libs as an example is more urban or UCity as other examples of nabes that are next set in the respective cities.
Just keep in mind that the 3 square miles does not include a good chunk of Capitol Hill, including dense corridors along Broadway, Olive, ,15th Ave, and (to a lesser extent) 19th Avenue. Also, it doesn't include South Lake Union/Cascade, which is a sizeable area that is exploding right now in terms of residential and employment growth.
It's also worth noting that Seattle has a number of relatively dense (albeit, somewhat isolated) pockets outside of the central part of the City, including the U District (which has near-Downtown levels of density), Inner Ballard (with several tracts at around 10,000 PPSM), and quite a few other areas with tracts ~8,000-10,000 PPSM at least 5-6 miles from Downtown. Of course, in Seattle these areas are often surrounded by lower density tracts, whereas in Philly the urban fabric is much more consistant, even 5-6 miles outside of Downtown.
Just keep in mind that the 3 square miles does not include a good chunk of Capitol Hill, including dense corridors along Broadway, Olive, ,15th Ave, and (to a lesser extent) 19th Avenue. Also, it doesn't include South Lake Union/Cascade, which is a sizeable area that is exploding right now in terms of residential and employment growth.
It's also worth noting that Seattle has a number of relatively dense (albeit, somewhat isolated) pockets outside of the central part of the City, including the U District (which has near-Downtown levels of density), Inner Ballard (with several tracts at around 10,000 PPSM), and quite a few other areas with tracts ~8,000-10,000 PPSM at least 5-6 miles from Downtown. Of course, in Seattle these areas are often surrounded by lower density tracts, whereas in Philly the urban fabric is much more consistant, even 5-6 miles outside of Downtown.
Agree and this Data describes very well what you are saying.
A big difference though does exist straight from the DT outward when comparing these two. The core of Philly is over 50K ppsm whereas Seattle is at 20-22K ppsm. The 20K ppsm is what is maintained in Philly out to the 5 mile range. So I agree there are definately dense areas in Seattle but the densest areas in Seattle (not talking uber small tracts) is more like the next set of nabes in Philly etc.
In looking at the data on Seattle it made sense in spending time in both as Seattle feels dense with less consistency and without the peak and the data bears this out. This is not to say that Seattle is not dense, as in the US perspective it truly is, but not at the same level and especially consistency when compared to Philly.
On the exploding, I think they actually both share this aspect. CC Philly is still doing very well (actually added more raw people than did Seattle in the last ten years) and continues on that path. CC Philly was actually the strongest real estate market in the metro during the housing crash. Also like Seattle Philly coninues to break ground on new projects a good aspect for both. This may sound like a booster but Philly and CC was really at its bottom back in the late 80s and early 90s and has a huge revitalization since then and continues.
Just this week Blatstein (porbably unknown to most but the one who basically revitalized No Libs finished securing a bunch of Buildings on North Broad between the Conv Center and Sring Garden including the Inquirer Building, will be interesting as this is an area of CC known as a preety horrid Deadzone.
Also the waterfront virtually unpopulated is prined for huge developement (some estimate as many as 60K additional residents over the next 30 years, not sure I buy that but...) including a new Light Rail Line
which will link with this (though to me the above is redundant as two underground subways and 24 regional rail line service this space underground already)
These are all good points, but I would highlight that Capitol Hill (which has a PPSM of nearly 30,000) is a large neighborhood and goes out to over 2 miles from the CBD. Also, the core of Lower Queen Anne is made up of two census tracts with 24,000 and 30,000 PPSM, respectively and three additional tracts with between 12,000 and 15,000 PPSM. The way your data source lumps them together, it includes several other tracts with very little residential, so it brings the total down. But Queen Anne is a very dense neighborhood, and is also just under 2 miles from the CBD.
I guess a larger point is Seattle's true core (Westlake, Pike Place Market, Waterfront, CBD) has less residential density than the next set of neighborhoods, including Belltown, Pioneer Square, Capitol Hill, Lower Queen Anne (minus the "Seattle Center" and other tracts with very little residential), and, within 5 years, SLU/Cascade.
But Seattle's true core as described above is definitely vibrant and active, there is just less residential.
Anyway you slice it, Philly is denser, but there is a difference in how the cores are structured. In downtown Philly, the core is clearly the densest part, while in Seattle, it's the immediately adjacent neighborhood that carry the most density.
These are all good points, but I would highlight that Capitol Hill (which has a PPSM of nearly 30,000) is a large neighborhood and goes out to over 2 miles from the CBD. Also, the core of Lower Queen Anne is made up of two census tracts with 24,000 and 30,000 PPSM, respectively and three additional tracts with between 12,000 and 15,000 PPSM. The way your data source lumps them together, it includes several other tracts with very little residential, so it brings the total down. But Queen Anne is a very dense neighborhood, and is also just under 2 miles from the CBD.
I guess a larger point is Seattle's true core (Westlake, Pike Place Market, Waterfront, CBD) has less residential density than the next set of neighborhoods, including Belltown, Pioneer Square, Capitol Hill, Lower Queen Anne (minus the "Seattle Center" and other tracts with very little residential), and, within 5 years, SLU/Cascade.
But Seattle's true core as described above is definitely vibrant and active, there is just less residential.
Anyway you slice it, Philly is denser, but there is a difference in how the cores are structured. In downtown Philly, the core is clearly the densest part, while in Seattle, it's the immediately adjacent neighborhood that carry the most density.
Good points. The cities are built so differently and at different times it is hard to perfectly compare them. Just as an example at about the same distance (tract is over 30K ppsm) in the fairmont section of Philly (Also know as the Art Museum neighborhood) but compact rowhomes and much tighter streets. QA definately has better views...
The only thing i would say is that includes a large encachement, many sq miles, most DTs are defined by less than 2 sq miles but understand as many DTs (especially good ones) extend with vitality outward through many neighborhoods. I lived in Queen Village (linked above) before moving into CC and Rittenhouse (linked below) and could access most of the DT very easily and the nabe had its own vibrance so understand your points.
Good points. The cities are built so differently and at different times it is hard to perfectly them. Just as an example at about the same distance (tract is over 30K ppsm) in the fairmont section of Philly (Also know as the Art Museum neighborhood) but compact rowhomes and much tighter streets. QA definately has better views...
Visited downtown Seattle for a couple of days; nice place, clean, new-modern buildings, rode the monorail to the Space Needle, went to top...very nice city with great surrounding scenery. A little slow, not real busy, kinda quiet at night, certainly not any hub-bub (day or night)...but a nice place. Comparing to Philly is misplaced. Philly has a very busy downtown day and night; a really built-out downtown...lots of people out and about day and night.
Those are great neighborhoods - one thing I love about Philly are the narrow streets.
A blessing a and a curse, parking can be horrid and the trinitys (a type of rowhouse) have aweful setups and the worst staircases you can imagine. But the QV nabe (about two blocks from the picture) has the dubious office of the surveyors Mason and Dixon, famous for drawing a line so to speak.
Visited downtown Seattle for a couple of days; nice place, clean, new-modern buildings, rode the monorail to the Space Needle, went to top...very nice city with great surrounding scenery. A little slow, not real busy, kinda quiet at night, certainly not any hub-bub (day or night)...but a nice place. Comparing to Philly is misplaced. Philly has a very busy downtown day and night; a really built-out downtown...lots of people out and about day and night.
I think a lot of visitors who stay around Westlake or Pike Place Market (most Seattle tourists) get this impression, but they miss a lot of the much busier nightlife activity nodes in adjacent neighborhoods. Westlake and Pike Place are fairly busy during the day, but are quiet at night
However, nearby areas like Upper Pike in Capitol Hill, Broadway in Capitol Hill, Lower Queen Anne (by Mercer and Queen Anne Ave), Belltown, and parts of Pioneer Square all have a lot of foot traffic during the evenings and nights. Not on the level of places like Philly, San Francisco, or Chicago, but much more than the main tourist hubs of the city. During Spring and Summer, restaurants and bars in these areas will often be full, even during the weekdays.
I think a lot of visitors who stay around Westlake or Pike Place Market (most Seattle tourists) get this impression, but they miss a lot of the much busier nightlife activity nodes in adjacent neighborhoods. Westlake and Pike Place are fairly busy during the day, but are quiet at night
However, nearby areas like Upper Pike in Capitol Hill, Broadway in Capitol Hill, Lower Queen Anne (by Mercer and Queen Anne Ave), Belltown, and parts of Pioneer Square all have a lot of foot traffic during the evenings and nights. Not on the level of places like Philly, San Francisco, or Chicago, but much more than the main tourist hubs of the city. During Spring and Summer, restaurants and bars in these areas will often be full, even during the weekdays.
I understand where you're coming from but this thread is a comparison the downtown areas of the two...is Capitol Hill considered downtown?
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