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I never said enclosed malls don't work. I think you are confusing what I have been saying. I said having enclosed malls takes retail away from other area's of downtown that could use that retail which would then infuse the entire downtown with foot traffic instead of pockets of high foot traffic around retail offerings. I also said that, if the entire downtown footprint is covered from head to toe with first floor retail, then enclosed malls are fine because the entire first floor around the downtown footprint would be filled and the enclosed mall would be spillover.
It's a bit unrealistic to expect retail use to be uniformly distributed in a highly concentrated manner all through any downtown. Downtowns consist of a mix of uses, some of which aren't compatible with retail like government buildings, churches, schools, convention centers, industrial buildings, etc.; why do you think areas of Lower Manhattan, like Wall Street, are relatively quiet at night? Office buildings can have retail use on the first floor, but you've got the loading areas and associated parking garages which can't have retail included on all sides.
It's a bit unrealistic to expect retail use to be uniformly distributed in a highly concentrated manner all through any downtown. Downtowns consist of a mix of uses, some of which aren't compatible with retail like government buildings, churches, schools, convention centers, industrial buildings, etc.; why do you think areas of Lower Manhattan, like Wall Street, are relatively quiet at night? Office buildings can have retail use on the first floor, but you've got the loading areas and associated parking garages which can't have retail included on all sides.
DC's convention center has retail included at street level. Industrial buildings should not be downtown. Churches are few and far between in a downtown so that's cool. If a government building has security measures that don't allow street level retail then fine but not all of them have the constraint. The point is, unless all AVAILABLE retail space is filled downtown, there is no need for an enclosed mall.
DC's convention center has retail included at street level.
Yes, but not along the entire length. That's not reasonable given the function of the building.
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Industrial buildings should not be downtown.
Says who?
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Churches are few and far between in a downtown so that's cool.
Depends on which downtown we're talking about. And we're not talking about just the church structures themselves, but the grounds (sometimes including cemeteries) and associated buildings. And then there are other civic buildings that don't have street level retail use, like libraries, homeless services centers, United Way buildings, schools/universities, etc.
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If a government building has security measures that don't allow street level retail then fine but not all of them have the constraint.
And most do. And I'm not just talking about federal government buildings, but city halls, county courthouses, state capitols, etc.
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The point is, unless all AVAILABLE retail space is filled downtown, there is no need for an enclosed mall.
No one city has all available retail space completely filled at any one time.
I tend to agree that cities don't need to be building enclosed malls downtown, but your view on the form and function of downtowns and urban areas in general is a bit skewed it seems.
Yes, but not along the entire length. That's not reasonable given the function of the building.
Says who?
Depends on which downtown we're talking about. And we're not talking about just the church structures themselves, but the grounds (sometimes including cemeteries) and associated buildings. And then there are other civic buildings that don't have street level retail use, like libraries, homeless services centers, United Way buildings, schools/universities, etc.
And most do. And I'm not just talking about federal government buildings, but city halls, county courthouses, state capitols, etc.
No one city has all available retail space completely filled at any one time.
I tend to agree that cities don't need to be building enclosed malls downtown, but your view on the form and function of downtowns and urban areas in general is a bit skewed it seems.
Says urban planners everywhere. Industrial buildings should not be downtown. The land is too valuable and the intensity of land use is not high enough. As for convention centers, they should be urban if they are going to be downtown which many aren't like say Atlanta's so that is already a problem for retail. They should not have surface parking either. You seem to be missing the point. The goal is too put retail where ever possible. That isn't everywhere, that is where ever possible. The problem has more to do with failed urban planning developments in cities like private sector buildings without first floor retail etc.
My view is strictly from an urban planning professional background which shapes my view. This is an industry view. It's the view of planners in Atlanta as well. This is what is being pushed nationwide by planners across the whole country. Enclosed malls are a thing of the past. The outdoor main street shopping experience is returning. The planners in every city are pushing this. There won't be many enclosed malls anywhere eventually.
Now imagine if all that retail was centered around the loop adding a second upscale magnificent mile in an area that clears out at night.
But it is there for a reason and does quite well. The loop is filling in quite nicely on retail and has one of the best if not the best Urban Dept store in the US.
Not all places have to be retail per se. To me retail is overblown and many RETAIL centers even at street level lose vibrancy early. The loop is kicking up the nightime vibrancy lately; more because of adding resdients than retail
If all streets are purely lined with retail all you get is a street mall; there are MANY MANY other aspects to a lively/active/vibrant place than purely retail. Though you and I are basically on the same page with maximizing street level interface. But this can be restaurants, cafes, bars, galleries etc. The more diversity the better IMHO and no place can ever achieve 100% street facing/fronting things. Nor do they need to but large gaps of none activity are not good.
But it is there for a reason and does quite well. The loop is filling in quite nicely on retail and has one of the best if not the best Urban Dept store in the US.
Not all places have to be retail per se. To me retail is overblown and many RETAIL centers even at street level lose vibrancy early. The loop is kicking up the nightime vibrancy lately; more because of adding resdients than retail
If all streets are purely lined with retail all you get is a street mall; there are MANY MANY other aspects to a lively/active/vibrant place than purely retail. Though you and I are basically on the same page with maximizing street level interface. But this can be restaurants, cafes, bars, galleries etc. The more diversity the better IMHO and no place can ever achieve 100% street facing/fronting things. Nor do they need to but large gaps of none activity are not good.
Who said anything about it being apparel retail? I'm talking about retail period. That includes restaurants, clothing stores, grocery stores, furniture stores, banks, art galleries, etc. etc. etc. The point is, they need to be street facing to activate the streets through the downtown grid. An outdoor pedestrian mall closed off to vehicular traffic is fine and does the same thing too. I'm only talking about enclosed malls which take pedestrians away from the street.
That is the difference between the way a planner thinks and a regular citizen thinks. Just because something is doing well doesn't mean it's the best and most intensive use for the parcel. Your view on first floor retail by the way is not shared through the industry.
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