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Honestly, how do you think you would eliminate dead zones downtown without street fronting retail? I assume you have an idea. I already said if all the viable space for retail is filled, then having a mall is fine. My point is when a downtown has not reached it full potential in urban design.
No. This is what you pontificated on with such great authority that has started this entire debate:
"urban" and "mall" is an oxymoron. If your downtown, stores should line the first floor of buildings, they should not be inside a mall. D.C. only has a Macy's downtown as for big box stores."
After being shown example after example from around the country, you refuse to acknowledge that they can and do work.
Now you backtrack......
The bottom line is this - D.C. is not the "perfect model" you seem to assume that it is. Different things work in different places for a reason - EVERYWHERE IS DIFFERENT.
No. This is what you pontificated on with such great authority that has started this entire debate:
"urban" and "mall" is an oxymoron. If your downtown, stores should line the first floor of buildings, they should not be inside a mall. D.C. only has a Macy's downtown as for big box stores."
After being shown example after example from around the country, you refuse to acknowledge that they can and do work.
Now you backtrack......
The bottom line is this - D.C. is not the "perfect model" you seem to assume that it is. Different things work in different places for a reason - EVERYWHERE IS DIFFERENT.
Seems like you didn't continue to read down the page. Where exactly did I backtrack? If you would have continued to read, my point was explained in greater depth. You seem to think the downtown's across America full of dead zones is a good thing. But hey, as long as the 3 or 4 blocks are vibrant around a downtown mall, all is well. It shows the urbanity and vibrancy you are used to if you think that is good enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Having an enclosed mall area with multiple levels causes vibrancy to be in pockets around the city unless the city possesses extremely high density. Lining every single building in a downtown with retail creates vibrancy everywhere. I guess we also have to take into consideration cities with downtown's that have tiny footprints. There is less room for street level retail if the downtown footprint isn't that big so, I guess if every inch of the downtown is filled with retail, a mall is fine. Unless a city has clothing apparel stores lining every single possibe retail space on the first floor of every single building, then there is no need for a mall. Especially one with a roof. If its a pedestrian mall, that is fine, but I wouldn't consider that a mall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I never said enclosed malls don't work. I think you are confusing what I have been saying. I said having enclosed malls takes retail away from other area's of downtown that could use that retail which would then infuse the entire downtown with foot traffic instead of pockets of high foot traffic around retail offerings. I also said that, if the entire downtown footprint is covered from head to toe with first floor retail, then enclosed malls are fine because the entire first floor around the downtown footprint would be filled and the enclosed mall would be spillover.
Also, do you really think the examples being given are a bench mark the world should follow for downtown vibrancy? I don't think so.
Seems like you didn't continue to read down the page. Where exactly did I backtrack? If you would have continued to read, my point was explained in greater depth. You seem to think the downtown's across America full of dead zones is a good thing. But hey, as long as the 3 or 4 blocks are vibrant around a downtown mall, all is well. It shows the urbanity and vibrancy you are used to if you think that is good enough.
Also, do you really think the examples being given are a bench mark the world should follow for downtown vibrancy? I don't think so.
What is your definition of "downtown"? Growing up in NYC I always thought of "downtown" as the financial district, which has very little retail (compared to the rest of Manhattan). I know live in Chicago, where "downtown" usually references the Loop which is also void of retail. Those are both financial office districts, which are less vibrant after 5pm and weekends.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAReastcoast
What is your definition of "downtown"? Growing up in NYC I always thought of "downtown" as the financial district, which has very little retail (compared to the rest of Manhattan). I know live in Chicago, where "downtown" usually references the Loop which is also void of retail. Those are both financial office districts, which are less vibrant after 5pm and weekends.
NYC is one of the only cities in the country (maybe THE only city) that has its downtown literally separated by "downtown", "midtown" and "uptown". Other cities have those things but they don't separate the city uses like NYC does and NONE of them are connected like NYC, I don't care how you slice it! "Midtown" Manhattan is more like the typical American downtown, with retail, homes AND offices in one bunch. "Downtown" Manhattan is an exception to most U.S. downtowns (or in this case, PART of downtown) because you are right, it's primarily office and little else. Chicago does have the Loop and River North, but State St. in the Loop is and was a HUGE retail strip in Chicago ("State St. that great street...." -Sinatra).
Chicago does have the Loop and River North, but State St. in the Loop is and was a HUGE retail strip in Chicago ("State St. that great street...." -Sinatra).
It seems as if State Street shopping caters to the 9-5 crowd, the same way retail around Wall Street does. The few times I have been in Macy's on State it was dead on the weekends.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAReastcoast
I was raised in Uptown Manhattan (161st and Broadway), nobody would ever say uptown resembles a "downtown".
LOL, exactly. It's the reason I always read a little bit closer any time someone uses the term "downtown". Everyone has a different meaning when they say it.
On a side note, I just spent some time up in NYC for a few weeks with family and stayed a few days in Washington Heights. As child of people from Queens, my heart has always been in the boroughs. As an adult I always thought that I could never live in NYC because I couldn't afford the areas I liked and didn't like areas I could afford. I must say your old 'hood almost changed my mind. Almost.
I was really surprised by what kind of apartment a person could afford up there.
Seems like you didn't continue to read down the page. Where exactly did I backtrack? If you would have continued to read, my point was explained in greater depth. You seem to think the downtown's across America full of dead zones is a good thing. But hey, as long as the 3 or 4 blocks are vibrant around a downtown mall, all is well. It shows the urbanity and vibrancy you are used to if you think that is good enough.
Ah, yes. Your standard "talk down to ANYONE that dares to disagree with me" pablum.
Kid, I've seen more Downtowns around the world than you could ever imagine. Get out of the damn DMV and broaden your horizons. The textbooks aren't always the end-all, be-all you insular types like to pretend they are. It's a great big world - get out in it.
LOL, exactly. It's the reason I always read a little bit closer any time someone uses the term "downtown". Everyone has a different meaning when they say it.
On a side note, I just spent some time up in NYC for a few weeks with family and stayed a few days in Washington Heights. As child of people from Queens, my heart has always been in the boroughs. As an adult I always thought that I could never live in NYC because I couldn't afford the areas I liked and didn't like areas I could afford. I must say your old 'hood almost changed my mind. Almost.
I was really surprised by what kind of apartment a person could afford up there.
Washington Heights is an awesome neighborhood! My parents who moved to SI, still own my childhood home and I get back up to the old hood as often as I can
NYC is one of the only cities in the country (maybe THE only city) that has its downtown literally separated by "downtown", "midtown" and "uptown". Other cities have those things but they don't separate the city uses like NYC does and NONE of them are connected like NYC, I don't care how you slice it! "Midtown" Manhattan is more like the typical American downtown, with retail, homes AND offices in one bunch. "Downtown" Manhattan is an exception to most U.S. downtowns (or in this case, PART of downtown) because you are right, it's primarily office and little else. Chicago does have the Loop and River North, but State St. in the Loop is and was a HUGE retail strip in Chicago ("State St. that great street...." -Sinatra).
Manhattan is a city not a "downtown." Downtown refers to all the neighborhoods on the lower part of the island, uptown is all the upper parts of the island. A lot of new cities like to make up random terms like downtown, midtown, and uptown for new neighborhoods (see Houston, Dallas, Atlanta) but these names mean absolutely nothing in those cities.
Also, New Orleans is another city that has different uses for the term. In NOLA, the Central Business District is in fact uptown (along with everything upriver from Canal Street), while the French Quarter and all the neighborhoods below it are downtown. For instance, if I'm heading "downtown" I would be going to the French Quarter or the Marigny or Bywater. As in NYC, heading downtown can mean an assortment of things.
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