Wow! I just found this thread. Yet I really don't know what to say. I don't know much about ESTL, so I can only provide perspective from the KCK side.
Not having been there, I've always envisioned East St. Louis as being similar to the far northeast section of KCK, the Quindaro BLVD corridor - both areas are vast majority black, poor, and derelict. Both areas on are major rivers, the Mississippi and the Missouri. Being on the Mississippi, ESTL may be able to match Quindaro's history. Quindaro, of course, has an extensive history in regard to the Civil War and abolitionist movement and Western University (first black college west of the Mississippi). While not mainstream, one can tour the Quindaro town site's ruins and see the John Brown statue and former site of Western University today. The Quindaro area's most notable residential area is Parkwood, which is an historically upper-middle-class neighborhood that is still intact and inhabited, in the center of the area northeast of the intersection of 10th and Quindaro BLVD. ESTL is known to have had one of the highest murder rates in the country. Even if you secluded Quindaro from KCK, I don't think that it would stack up to ESTL. Here's a map of the area:
Kansas City, KS - Google Maps
As for comparing the ESTL to the entire city of KCK, I do believe KCK wins, despite the lack of lightrail. Although, KCMO, you did mention a mixed-use urban development in ESTL?
As you know, KCK doesn't even have a large-scale urban project in the works, at least outside the KU Med/Rosedale area. However, KCK's core has seen a lot of small-scale infill. Community (formerly Catholic) Housing of Wyandotte County has built dozens and dozens of new houses and townhouses (about 160 total) at roughly an average cost of $150K, turning around or improving multiple neighborhoods and helping people with home ownership. Their houses are well designed and most fit in very well with existing housing. KCK's mayor even chooses to live in one, in the St. Peter's neighborhood. Here's a page on their website with an example of their work:
For Sale | Community Housing of Wyandotte County
KU's School of Architecture and Urban Planning has built multiple houses in urban KCK, a couple of which are near downtown:
Studio 804
Studio 804: Mod 3
Possibly the largest single project near downtown KCK was the Prescott Plaza development at 18th and I-70, which provided an upscale grocery (Sun Fresh) to inner KCK residents, as well the area's first Jack In The Box:
Prescott Plaza - Kansas City Business Journal
Examples of recent residential development in downtown KCK:
City Vision KCK » Historic City Hall Lofts
City Vision KCK » 5th Street East Townhomes
City Vision KCK » Turtle Hill Homes and Townhomes
Examples of recent commercial development in downtown KCK:
Children's Campus of Kansas City :: RDG Planning & Design
City Vision KCK » The Kansan Building (recently landed engineering firm)
I'm going to stop, but the point is KCK's urban core is not dead and is growing, although that growth is small-scale, grassroots, organic, and slow-paced.
Looking at Wikipedia, KCK's peak population was in 1970 at 168,000, while ESTL's was 82,000 in 1950. KCK's population today is about 146,000, while ESTL's is 31,000. It looks like ESTL lost a great deal more of its population. Although, KCK did grow an expansive suburban area and glancing at a map it looks like ESTL did not. However, in history it looks like ESTL was once closer to KCK in size. In 1900, for example, ESTL's population was about 30,000, while KCK's was 51,500. KCK has suffered much since it's glory days of a bustling downtown full of department stores, but it doesn't appear to have fallen like ESTL. Also, ESTL is something like 98% black. It is extremely segregated. KCK is much more diverse at 55% "white", 27% black, 3% Asian and the rest being "other". 28% of the population is Hispanic. I had always thought KCK had fallen pretty hard and had a striking abandonement by the middle class, but comparing it to ESTL makes it seem a lot better!
KCK has an extensive Eastern European and Catholic history, which many individuals still live there and own businesses or are involved in city government. KCK is a Catholic community. I think a lot of the reason KCK has held on as well as it has is because of parochial schools, Bishop Ward High School and Donnely College, all near downtown KCK, and because of families with loyalty to the community. Having one of the top public high schools in the country, Sumner Academy, and one of the better urban school districts, hasn't hurt either. But if it weren't for the Catholics, I think KCK's core would be
completely devoid of a middle class.
Another interesting fact is that just a couple decades ago, KCK's core was still majority white. Now I believe Hispanics (and not just Mexicans) make up the majority. In fact, they're even encroaching upon the Quindaro area, which is good because it breaks up the segregation. Also, the Hispanics remodel a ton of houses and storefronts and invigorate neighborhoods with families. It may not be yuppies, but it's a sort of gentrification.
As for downtown KCK, there are probably like 10,000 office workers down there and Strawberry Hill, the neighborhood with the most appeal to white people and probably most known, is part of downtown KCK. It's never really fallen, but lately has gotten better. There are several restaurants and bars in the neighborhoods business district.
Home (http://strawberryhillkck.com/default.aspx - broken link)
Downtown KCK (proper) actually has retail and restaurants and is fairly busy. HOWEVER, the retail is mostly oriented toward the working class and poor or Hispanics. Thrift stores, Rent-A-Center, urban beauty supplies, etc. There's also a small casino in downtown KCK.
Photos of downtown KCK can be found here:
KCRag Forum - View topic - 50 Photos of Downtown KCK
Svoboda: Daytripping Downtown Kansas City, Kansas
PHOTOS: Downtown KCK tree lighting | The Kansas City Kansan (http://kansascitykansan.com/blogs/nick-sloan/photos-downtown-kck-tree-lighting/9094 - broken link)
Economically, KCK is doing well too. There are over 80K jobs in KCK, which the population is only 145,000. The 2 largest employers being the University of Kansas Hospital, medical center, and nursing and med schools, which I believe has over 4,500 employees and over 3000 students. As well as GM's plant, which has a few thousand employees, I believe.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2011/01/11/wyandotte-county-ranks-11th-jobs-growth.html
All of this and I've focused only on downtown KCK and the urban core, and haven't included any development going on in the KU Med/Rosedale area or the suburban development in KCK, usually the suburban development gets the most attention.
That said, KCK has built up an incredible suburban area several miles west of its downtown called Village West. This area is in a suburban school district called Piper, where most of the upscale suburban residential development has taken place. Although, in the grand scheme of things KCK hasn't been good at attracting middle-class suburbanites from outside the community in terms of residential. Village West, however, is a regional shopping district. Village West includes the Kansas (Nascar) Speedway, Sporting KC's stadium (KC's MLS team), T-Bones ballpark (minor league), just-opened Hollywood Casino, several hotels, as well as Schlitterbahn water park, Great Wolf Lodge, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Cabela's, Target, Walmart, Kohl's, JCPenney, a wide variety of suburban and local restaurant chains, and an outdoor, pedestrian-oriented (inward, no cars, mall without a roof) lifestyle mall with a variety of mall stores. Actually, it's taken on an "outlet theme", but offers upscale outlets like Saks Fifth Avenue Off Fifth, Brooks Brothers, JCrew, Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, etc. Here's a satellite map showing downtown KCK on the far right and Village West on the far left:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Kansas...gl=us&t=h&z=13
WycoWest.com | Welcome to Western Wyandotte County, Kansas
Legends Outlets Kansas City - Outlet Mall, Deals, Restaurants, Entertainment, Events and Activities
All that said, I choose KCK! But props to ESTL's lightrail and riverfront development. KCK could certainly use some larger scale urban development to help bring in outsiders. But like I've said many times (and agree you with KCMO), it's a shame the sports facilities and at least some of went out west couldn't have been in downtown KCK.
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