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Hi all
I want to post our general needs and explain why the following are being considered. No, I'm not asking "Tell me where to move", it's more of a request of info from people who may know the answers
I was born and raised in Philadelphia. Been living in NJ for 11 years. I don't miss that "huge" city feel at all (I work down in Philly, so it's a horrible reminder each day). I like where my parents live in NJ, it's very suburban but it's also a bit too suburban for my liking. My partner and I have lived in Collingswood, NJ for the last 4 going on 5 years and this is a mix of suburban, but it's close enough to the city to give it a small town with edge, kind of feeling. Does this make sense?
Here is what we are looking for.
-Affordable cost of living (With the exception of CA and NY, mostly anywhere may be a bit cheaper for us)
-Lovely weather. Low humidity is a win for me. (Asthma)
-SCENERY. EVERYTHING IS SO BLAH HERE.
-Friendly, overall non-snobby people.
-We are gay, so we clearly need to be around people who accept the fact that it's 2012.
-NOT ghetto. This is hard to explain. Philly just feels so unsafe and it's just so darn ghetto. This is because this is a huge city and it just feels SO congested...and with a lot of undesirables
That's that somewhat in a nutshell.
We are looking at them because:
Las Vegas: We've vacationed here many many times. It's fantastic. The weather is great. It was GREAT fun. Yes, we HAVE ventured off of the strip. We've driven through Henderson. We've driven to the Hoover Dam/Grand Canyon. We've been through Summerlin, and it was all just gorgeous. I don't mind the excessive heat in the summer. I'll have to get used to it at first. Of the 3, this is the only place I've actually been to. We aren't gamblers in the sense that we'll be doing it often, however, we do enjoy casinos for what they are. (We have Atlantic City close, so we go every now and then for fun). We aren't big drinkers, so we aren't looking to go to Vegas "for all the wrong reasons"
Tuscon: Just through reading stuff on it, it seems like a big-little city with a small town charm and great sense of community. It looks like the heat gets just intense as Vegas, so I'm ok with that. The weather and the location just seem great to us. Vegas is not that far, as well as CA for the beaches. This way we can vacation in Vegas and not live there and have the "Vegas" experience ruined for us.
Denver: I have always loved Colorado. Perhaps it's just the name, perhaps it's the Rocky Mountains. I'll be honest here, I don't mind the cold and I don't mind the snow. What I read is that this is a place that gets truly all 4 seasons - I like this! I don't mind snow in January, and a warm day in April, a hot day in July, a cool day in October. This is how it SHOULD be . I also read that the humidity can be fairly low (not as low as Vegas/Tuscon), but it also seems much more outdoorsy. I like this a lot, too! It seems like another modern city that's just not entirely plagued with all the problems some of the larger cities have (yet..). Denver, from what I've read on it, reminds me of California weather (in some parts of CA), without the CA cost of living. I believe I read that CO has more sunny days than CA. Is this true?
I love mountains and I love scenery. I want to get out of the tight, jam packed, Northeast SO VERY BADLY. I am reluctant on Tuscon/Denver because I am more familiar with Vegas, however, I am reluctant on Vegas due to the job market being one of the worst in the country.
The way it stands now, I'm very interested in Denver followed up by Vegas followed up by Tuscon.
Please ask any questions if you need more info before you respond. I appreciate anyone's time for this.
Honestly, have you considered Salt Lake City? While it may seem strange, seeing as it's in Utah, it might be the perfect place for you. The city is considered very progressive, and is extremely gay friendly. Everything you seek in a city is matched exactly there. It's affordable, the weather seems to match what you are looking for, the scenery is amazing, the people are said to be friendly, and the city is generally very well-kept, with only a few not-so-good neighborhoods.
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
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If you like the idea of either Tucson or Denver, you may do well in Albuquerque, it has elements of both (high desert meets the Rockies) plus its own New Mexican cultures and vibe. Great seasonal weather, subject to winter chills but not very long or frequent, less swing temps than Denver, nice hot dry summers (but not inferno hot like Phoenix or Vegas), friendly down to earth people, very progressive and gay friendly, and you got the all the artistry and creative vibes in Santa Fe just an hour away. I'm from the east coast as well, and moving away for similar reasons (climate, need more elbow room, a change of scenery and atmosphere). My partner and I went on a trip to New Mexico last year and we were sold on it, this after having visited Denver a number of times which I am very fond of, it's just the soul of the Land of Enchantment tugged at my heart strings a little more. NM was not on my radar at all until out of the blue it struck some curiosity with me, the more I learned about it the more intrigued I became. There are also several casinos in the state, this is one of the better ones just outside Santa Fe - http://www.buffalothunderresort.com/. There's also a Hard Rock Casino just outside ABQ as well. New Mexico also has lower unemployment than CO, AZ or NV (http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/...nt-update.aspx). We're moving there in a few weeks. PM me if you'd like.
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 03-30-2012 at 02:56 AM..
Because of my ignorance, I just view Albuquerque as "just some hick place". I never really thought about it. I'm from Philadelphia originally. I just want to look at a city and try and compare it another city. I know ABQ isn't as big.. but what about crime? To be honest, I am getting sick of all of the crazy and vile crime that is stricken here in the NE. I know crime is everywhere. I know you can never get away from it. I'm also sick of this general ghetto attitude that the NE'sters have. I'm not really a "city person" but I am SO UBER FAR from being rural.
As for Salt Lake City, I know about the good stuff... but, I just have no desire to move there. Again, most of it is probably ignorance on my behalf, but "I just don't want to live in Utah" ( at least, not at this time).
I just don't have the funds to travel to the Denver area and the ABQ area and get a feel. =( Part of me just wants to research somewhere and just GOO GO GO GO GO GO.
The crime and economy in both NV/AZ is what turns me off from those places, which is why I was leaning towards Denver area. However, nothing is ever set in stone.
Have you been to Vegas? Pheonix? Tuscon? Other southwest areas? What made you and your partner fall in love with ABQ vs ..anywhere else? I'm curious as to what peaked your interests
I'll just talk about Tucson, which I know the most about.
Tucson meets all of the criteria you listed. Cost of living is among the lowest of any large city. But salaries are lower too (more about that later). House prices got out of whack compared to incomes during the real estate bubble, but have come back down to earth. Gas prices are regularly in the bottom 10 cities in the country. Weather is similar to Vegas: blistering summer from May to September (highs usually 100+, but low humidity). Coldest time of year still usually means highs in the 60s, with occasional periods below that. Coldest lows are in the high 20's, but usually high 30's/low 40s.
People in Tucson come from all over, so there's no resistance to newcomers. I think you'll find people as friendly as you want them to be. And "snobby" is the last word I would use to describe people there.
Tucson is reasonably gay-friendly. There is no gayborhood to recommend where you would be sure to be surrounded by like-minded people, but you are unlikely to freak out any of your straight neighbors or experience outright harassment or discrimination. Tucson has historically been a blue part of a red state, and there are plenty of conservatives in the city and state. But note that Arizona's consevatism is more economic and less of the churchy social conservatism of the Bible Belt. The two US representatives from Tucson are democrats including, until recently, the shooting victim Gabrielle Giffords. It's worth pointing out that the Republican congressman that Giffords replaced was outed as gay after having served 10 years in Congress and he continued to be reelected for another 10 years after the outing. Also, it's good that you're already partnered because Tucson isn't a great place for swinging singles.
Parts of every city are ghetto. But if you're intent on avoiding that, it's easy enough to do in Tucson. And Tucson's version of ghetto is probably nowhere near as scary looking or feeling than anything you see in Philly.
The other advantage of Tucson that I would add is that it's a 2-hour drive from Phoenix, which offers lots of things not available in Tucson that you can live without on a regular basis: better shopping, big name concerts, sports, and theater. Plus, you would have access to these things without having to live in Phoenix, which comes with the big disadvantage of being much more spread out and choked with traffic.
What you need to know about Tucson that may not fit your image of it has to do with its economy. Tucson does not have a large corporate presence. The economy is dominated by the government (University of Arizona, military bases, border patrol) tourism (hotels/resorts and restaurants for winter visitors) and services. The biggest segments of the service sector, besides the hotels, are healthcare (lots of retirees) and customer service call centers.
There are a few Fortune 500 companies that have significant operations employing professionals in Tucson, namely the defense contractor Raytheon and IBM. But after them, Fortune 500 operation means things like a huge distribution center for Target. There are also smaller companies in aviation and bio-tech sectors, but these don't add up to a major segment of the economy.
Somewhat by circumstance and somewhat by choice, Tucson's economy plays second fiddle to Phoenix. The part that Tucson doesn't control is the fact that Phoenix has been much larger than Tucson for the last 100 years, so most companies looking at Arizona are going to look there first. The part contributed by Tucson is that it has historically had an anti-growth, anti-business attitude, which has prevented its economy from advancing much beyond its government/services foundation.
What this all means in practical terms for you and your partner is that moving to Tucson without jobs set up is not a good idea. Also, even if you go there with jobs, you'll have to deal with the limitations of the small job market if one of you ever needs to change jobs.
Now of course, if you guys do something for a living that's more entrepreneurial, like real estate, or provide a universal service, like hairstyling or dentristy, you could succeed in Tucson just as easily as you could anywhere with time and effort. But if you're used to working in the corporate world, Tucson may not provide the opportunities you need.
I grew up in Tucson but left at 18 and look at it only as a place to potentially retire in once my career is over.
I'll just talk about Tucson, which I know the most about.
Tucson meets all of the criteria you listed. Cost of living is among the lowest of any large city. But salaries are lower too (more about that later). House prices got out of whack compared to incomes during the real estate bubble, but have come back down to earth. Gas prices are regularly in the bottom 10 cities in the country. Weather is similar to Vegas: blistering summer from May to September (highs usually 100+, but low humidity). Coldest time of year still usually means highs in the 60s, with occasional periods below that. Coldest lows are in the high 20's, but usually high 30's/low 40s.
People in Tucson come from all over, so there's no resistance to newcomers. I think you'll find people as friendly as you want them to be. And "snobby" is the last word I would use to describe people there.
Tucson is reasonably gay-friendly. There is no gayborhood to recommend where you would be sure to be surrounded by like-minded people, but you are unlikely to freak out any of your straight neighbors or experience outright harassment or discrimination. Tucson has historically been a blue part of a red state, and there are plenty of conservatives in the city and state. But note that Arizona's consevatism is more economic and less of the churchy social conservatism of the Bible Belt. The two US representatives from Tucson are democrats including, until recently, the shooting victim Gabrielle Giffords. It's worth pointing out that the Republican congressman that Giffords replaced was outed as gay after having served 10 years in Congress and he continued to be reelected for another 10 years after the outing. Also, it's good that you're already partnered because Tucson isn't a great place for swinging singles.
Parts of every city are ghetto. But if you're intent on avoiding that, it's easy enough to do in Tucson. And Tucson's version of ghetto is probably nowhere near as scary looking or feeling than anything you see in Philly.
The other advantage of Tucson that I would add is that it's a 2-hour drive from Phoenix, which offers lots of things not available in Tucson that you can live without on a regular basis: better shopping, big name concerts, sports, and theater. Plus, you would have access to these things without having to live in Phoenix, which comes with the big disadvantage of being much more spread out and choked with traffic.
What you need to know about Tucson that may not fit your image of it has to do with its economy. Tucson does not have a large corporate presence. The economy is dominated by the government (University of Arizona, military bases, border patrol) tourism (hotels/resorts and restaurants for winter visitors) and services. The biggest segments of the service sector, besides the hotels, are healthcare (lots of retirees) and customer service call centers.
There are a few Fortune 500 companies that have significant operations employing professionals in Tucson, namely the defense contractor Raytheon and IBM. But after them, Fortune 500 operation means things like a huge distribution center for Target. There are also smaller companies in aviation and bio-tech sectors, but these don't add up to a major segment of the economy.
Somewhat by circumstance and somewhat by choice, Tucson's economy plays second fiddle to Phoenix. The part that Tucson doesn't control is the fact that Phoenix has been much larger than Tucson for the last 100 years, so most companies looking at Arizona are going to look there first. The part contributed by Tucson is that it has historically had an anti-growth, anti-business attitude, which has prevented its economy from advancing much beyond its government/services foundation.
What this all means in practical terms for you and your partner is that moving to Tucson without jobs set up is not a good idea. Also, even if you go there with jobs, you'll have to deal with the limitations of the small job market if one of you ever needs to change jobs.
Now of course, if you guys do something for a living that's more entrepreneurial, like real estate, or provide a universal service, like hairstyling or dentristy, you could succeed in Tucson just as easily as you could anywhere with time and effort. But if you're used to working in the corporate world, Tucson may not provide the opportunities you need.
I grew up in Tucson but left at 18 and look at it only as a place to potentially retire in once my career is over.
Thank you so much. This was very helpful and informative.
When it comes to our jobs, well, we MIGHT be in a decent situation. We both work for very large companies...(Starbucks & Ricoh). Now he'll have no problem finding a starbucks to be transfered to.. lol but even though Ricoh is global, it's not everywhere. There is one in Vegas, Denver, and even ABQ. Not Tuscon..which is why Tuscon is on the bottom of my list so far. It's very possible that both of our jobs won't have any openings to transfer us, however, at least we have some kind of start.
Although I'm not totally throwing Tuscon out the window, Denver is pretty much my top spot. With ABQ being looked into and considered. I do like the low cost of living in ABQ. Denver is still cheaper than the Philly metro area where I am, but ABQ... is even lower..
I need to throw in one VERY vital important piece of information. We currently only have 1 car. This means, wherever we go, there needs to be moderately decent public transportation. No, it doesn't have to be the best, but if I have to take a bus/train home one night I don't want to spend 1 1/2 hours to go 6 miles, LOL
Sorry for the double post, but I can't believe I almost forgot this! Financially, we'll have 2 cars eventually but it's nice to live where you don't absolutely NEED it --like we do in NJ (most parts). I do miss Philly because of this.
I do want to explain that this is also another reason I have expressed such interest in Denver. I just need to look into ABQ. Vegas' is so-so, and Tuscon is also so-so.
I need to throw in one VERY vital important piece of information. We currently only have 1 car. This means, wherever we go, there needs to be moderately decent public transportation. No, it doesn't have to be the best, but if I have to take a bus/train home one night I don't want to spend 1 1/2 hours to go 6 miles, LOL
Sorry for the double post, but I can't believe I almost forgot this! Financially, we'll have 2 cars eventually but it's nice to live where you don't absolutely NEED it --like we do in NJ (most parts). I do miss Philly because of this.
I do want to explain that this is also another reason I have expressed such interest in Denver. I just need to look into ABQ. Vegas' is so-so, and Tuscon is also so-so.
Out of the 4 cities you're looking at, Denver certainly has the best public transportation. With that said, the public transportation system here is nowhere as good as Philly or NYC, but it's certainly extensive enough that you could get around fairly easily without a car. If you plan to use public transportation, I would highly suggest living in city rather than the suburbs. Central Denver is much easier to get around via public transportation than the 'burbs.
Denver is definately the largest city on your list, and will have the most "big city" feel out of them all. Still, coming from the Philadelphia area, you'll obviously find Denver to be smaller and more laid back. Denver has lots of great, urban neighborhoods in around downtown (much more than the city gets credit for) and there's plenty to do. The city is also very gay friendly. Come for a visit... I think you'll like the vibe of this area.
Good luck!
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