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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
So what is it that you can find in LA that you can't get in NY (or within one hour drive from NY)?
Where do I start?
A sunny Mediterranean climate with pleasant winters?
Mountains (I mean REAL mountains)
Palm trees
Lots of film studios
The most unique metro area in the US and possibly the world
Canyons (not just the manmade kind)
Surfing beaches
Things in Chicago you can't find AT ALL in NYC...
Hmmmm...deep dish pizza? But I'm sure there's somewhere in NYC that has it. A big lake? Well NYC has the Atlantic. Gangsters, the Mafia? Oh NYC has that too, if that's your thing. Black culture? Harlem probably beats Chicago's South Side.
I'll say the same for Toronto, except it's Canadian and cleaner.
Philly has colonial history, for a start, while NYC has mostly erased most of its even though it's technically older than either Philly OR Boston.
A sunny Mediterranean climate with pleasant winters?
Okay if I wanna go on vacation in the middle of February I would probably pick LA over Chicago. I'll give you that. On the other hand if it's summer time it makes no difference. So I will give you 40% credit on this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
Mountains (I mean REAL mountains)
We have mountains in NJ and in the upstate NY suburbs. Yes, real mountains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
Palm trees.
Palm trees, wow! Quite a tourist attraction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
Lots of film studios
We have film studios in NY. Besides who goes to a city to look at film studios?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
The most unique metro area in the US and possibly the world
This doesn't strike you as a bit of a circular answer? Q: "What's so unique about LA". A: "The most unique metro area in the US!".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
Canyons (not just the manmade kind)
Surfing beaches
We have surfing beaches in NY. You can probably even find some canyons if that's your thing.
So you see how this game works? I guess by your logic there is no reason to go to LA either since you can't really find there anything that you can't get in NY. Except for palm trees. But if I want to look at palm trees in the middle of February I would rather take a shorter flight elsewhere.
Point being that every great city offers a different package, you just need to open up your mind a little bit. And I am not denying that Chicago is closer in mold to NY than LA is. But to say that once you've seen NY there is "no compelling reason" to go to Chicago is downright stupid.
Few people except for Toronto homers put Toronto on Chicago's level in terms of anything. In Toronto's defense though it is not actually similar size to Chicago, as you suggest. Yes, they have similar populations within city limits, but that's a pretty meaningless statistic. (Within city limits they are both bigger than Paris.) The more meaningful figure is urban area population where Chicago has roughly 4 million more people. For its size Toronto is doing very well. But simply as a function of size it is more on Philly's level IMO than Chicago's.
I absolutely agree with you.
I have been active in various Toronto/Canada based urban forum, and locals almost never brought out Philly, as everyone seems to assume it is somehow beneath Toronto. Most often they compare with Chicago as if they are similar. Just by walking on the streets for 5 minutes one would notice the huge difference. They constantly also mention New York ("the NYC in Canada" for example). That confuses me. Just because they are the biggest city in each country doesn't make them a pair. NYC and Toronto has very little in common.
Philadelphia is a great city with rich history, culture and urban life. I don't think it is degrading to say Toronto belongs to the same league as Philly. Now I believe it more.
Well I'm not lying since I am simply repeating what you said(maybe you she proof read your post). And you sound like a desperate homer posting irrelevant things about your city that no one single person on this forum cares about. Its actually pretty funnu.
No you're not. I never said I don't like downtown Chicago because it's "too clean". That is a lie.
No you're not. I never said I don't like downtown Chicago because it's "too clean". That is a lie.
I think you don't like downtown Chicago because it is not in Toronto. If downtown Toronto were what Chicago is like, I highly doubt you would give such dubious criticism.
Downtown Chicago is not perfect for sure. But the urban planning, design, architecture and public transit is so much superior to Toronto's. No question about it. Let's be honest, we would be happy if our downtown, waterfront and rapid transit is half as impressive as Chicago.
Downtown Toronto's planning is mediocre, while Chicago's is world class.
I absolutely agree with you.
I have been active in various Toronto/Canada based urban forum, and locals almost never brought out Philly, as everyone seems to assume it is somehow beneath Toronto. Most often they compare with Chicago as if they are similar. Just by walking on the streets for 5 minutes one would notice the huge difference. They constantly also mention New York ("the NYC in Canada" for example). That confuses me. Just because they are the biggest city in each country doesn't make them a pair. NYC and Toronto has very little in common.
Philadelphia is a great city with rich history, culture and urban life. I don't think it is degrading to say Toronto belongs to the same league as Philly. Now I believe it more.
Well said. It must be because Toronto is the alpha dog of Canada so they think it is - or should be - on the level of other countries' top cities. You'll often hear from Torontonians "we are the biggest media market in Canada" or "we are the cultural capital of Canada". It's like they need to be reminded that Canada has a population less than California and its contribution to global culture is limited to ice hockey.
No you're not. I never said I don't like downtown Chicago because it's "too clean". That is a lie.
That reminds me, you said you didn't like downtown Chicago because it was "antiseptic" and "sterile." Which is a pseudo-intellectual's way of saying "clean." That's no lie.
I think he likes all these, but I don't think this is what the downtown core of a large city with 2.8M people should look like. I would want them gone and be replaced with beautiful architectures.
LOL. You would tear down all the buildings on Yonge and Queen Streets? Why? They are vibrant, eclectic, colourful, lively, funky, and interesting, and just plain fun. They have what downtown Chicago is lacking. Independent vintage clothing stores, small record shops, head shops, nudey bars, massage parlours, dozens of places to eat open until 3am or later, all kinds of interesting, mostly independent businesses.
What in the world would be the benefit of tearing down all these buildings? And what would you replace them with exactly? If you put up sleek new office and residential towers, they wouldn't have the same kind of interesting businesses. You almost NEVER find those kind of businesses in sterile new skyscrapers. Whether office or residential, new skyscrapers attract bank branches and chain drug stores. Where would I go to get my Shawarma at 2:30am on a Tuesday? The shawarma place couldn't afford those rents, and the owners of those towers wouldn't rent to it anyways. They want huge bank and drug store chains that they know will be able to pay the rent for years with virtually no risk. That's why those old 2-3 story "throwaway" buildings are so vital to vibrancy. They have cheaper rent. They will rent to businesses that the owners of skyscrapers won't rent their retail space to. Downtown Chicago's relative lack of "throwaways" is what makes it's retail streets feel sterile and predictable, with the same chains you can find most anywhere.
I guess you'd rather have the sterile, predictable, dull chain stores you'd find anywhere dominating downtown retail streets rather than the kind of interesting businesses that the older lowrise buildings attract and allow?
Were these worn old lowrises torn down and replaced with sleek new skyscrapers with ground-floor retail, you would not see those kind of businesses there. You would see national/international chains, banks, drug stores, etc. Downtown Toronto has hundreds of highrises, but for the most part they are just off the major retail strips like Yonge and Queen rather than right on them (though Yonge Street does have several large skyscrapers under construction or soon to begin construction).
Now compare this with State Street, one of downtown Chicago's two most famous shopping streets:
Instead of hundreds of small, interesting independent businesses with narrow (10-15 foot) storefronts, you get fewer, larger stores. Mostly national/international chains. The same thing you can find in any suburban mall. It lacks the interesting eclecticism you find in downtown Toronto.
N. Michigan Avenue is great for what it is, but it lacks the funkiness as well. It also has fewer, larger, generic (although upscale) chain stores. Where are the interesting, one-of-a-kind businesses? Where are the 24-hour burger joints? Where is the fun and interesting stuff that makes me want to go there?
This is Bloor/Yorkville area, Toronto's "Magnificent Mile". It is actually 400 meters long. Supposedly the most posh area in town, not too bad, but I don't think it is comparable to Michigan Ave. Not even close.
But you're only looking at Bloor Street, which is only part of Toronto's version of "Magnificent Mile". The lowrise streets immediately to the north (Cumberland Street, Yorkville Avenue, Bellair Street, Hazelton Avenue) are even more posh and upscale than Bloor Street. And they also have something that N. Michigan Avenue and Oak Street lack: they are a major nightlife hotspot. Oak Street running west from North Michigan Avenue would be Chicago's version of lowrise Yorkville, yet Oak is almost completely lacking in nightclubs, bars, and late-night restaurants (it's almost completely lacking in restaurants period). Because of this, Chicago's upscale shopping district is very quiet after midnight, while Bloor-Yorkville is packed with people going to bars, clubs, and late-night restaurants.
Chicago may have more beautiful downtown architecture and planning, but it is also a lot more boring. It lacks what I described. Put it this way: what is downtown Chicago's counterpart to Toronto's Kensington Market:
Where in downtown Chicago can I find these kind of funky, fun businesses and street scenes. Where can I find something like this below like, the Roach-A-Rama and Hot Box Cafe.
Downtown Chicago, with it`s sterile, overly planned and regulated predictability would NEVER allow the kind of businesses and street scenes these Kensington Market links show. And look how narrow the streets are. This forces cars to drive very slow speeds, which turns the streets themselves into almost a defacto pedestrian mall. There is nothing remotely similar in Greater Downtown Chicago to this. There is nothing this pedestrian-friendly in downtown Chicago. Instead you have wide, multi-lane streets with traffic speeding through. Chicago`s architecture may be more beautiful, but it`s also a lot less fun and interesting.
A sunny Mediterranean climate with pleasant winters?
Mountains (I mean REAL mountains)
Palm trees
Lots of film studios
The most unique metro area in the US and possibly the world
Canyons (not just the manmade kind)
Surfing beaches
Things in Chicago you can't find AT ALL in NYC...
Hmmmm...deep dish pizza? But I'm sure there's somewhere in NYC that has it. A big lake? Well NYC has the Atlantic. Gangsters, the Mafia? Oh NYC has that too, if that's your thing. Black culture? Harlem probably beats Chicago's South Side.
I'll say the same for Toronto, except it's Canadian and cleaner.
Philly has colonial history, for a start, while NYC has mostly erased most of its even though it's technically older than either Philly OR Boston.
No. You`ve never been to Toronto, so you can`t comment on it.
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