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I added them for you. I still think Louisville wins this battle as it is the most progressive of the bunch and easiest to get around (ie less sprawl) with several great compact urban hoods and the best food scene among those listed except for possibly STL.
Thank you but you took out Des Moines...which is okay I suppose since I think it's gone lower on my list. I would still consider it in a heartbeat with a job offer though.
Pittsburgh=St.Louis> Kansas City> Columbus>Louisville> Des Moines
For me Louisville and Columbus stand out...almost all the amenities of Pittsburgh and STL, with half the crime and urban decay issues, all in a more compact, user friendly city. After that, its a toss up between Pittsburgh and STL, but I give the nod to Pittsburgh as I believe its renaissance is ahead of STL. Next, I would say STL and then KC, Omaha, and then Des Moines. Des Moines is less than half the size of even Louisville, and does not have many urban amenities, so not really a fair comparison. Omaha is a great town, but Louisville does more of what it does better and bigger, with better weather, and IMO more festivals and culture.
Thank you but you took out Des Moines...which is okay I suppose since I think it's gone lower on my list. I would still consider it in a heartbeat with a job offer though.
Really sorry to hear that, since I'm fairly sure this is because of how quickly the thread in the DSM forum deteriorated.
All you're going to get in the DSM forum is bickering, and all you're going to get in the General forum is people who don't actually have any experience with the city writing it off as boring or too small. Here's the truth: it's a kick-ass city for its size. It satisfies your entire list. It has a fantastic economy right now. It has easy access to a ton of other cities and is located at the intersection of two of the busiest Interstates in the country.
It is not in the same league as Pittsburgh and St. Louis. That absolutely does not mean you shouldn't still consider it. If it's not right for you, it's not right for you, but don't make that judgment based on (a) the bickering in the DSM forum, which has a major troll problem or (b) the uninformed opinions of the masses in the General forum, whose groupthink dictates that a bigger city is always better.
I try not to post much about Des Moines in the General forum, because I know it's a mid-sized city in the Midwest and that's not what most people are looking for. I know it usually can't compete with bigger cities, and that's fine. But for you, looking at what you want from a city, I truly do think it's a good fit. Not the only fit, but a good one nonetheless, and it makes me sad to see that you seem to have gotten a wrong impression of it.
Really sorry to hear that, since I'm fairly sure this is because of how quickly the thread in the DSM forum deteriorated.
All you're going to get in the DSM forum is bickering, and all you're going to get in the General forum is people who don't actually have any experience with the city writing it off as boring or too small. Here's the truth: it's a kick-ass city for its size. It satisfies your entire list. It has a fantastic economy right now. It has easy access to a ton of other cities and is located at the intersection of two of the busiest Interstates in the country.
It is not in the same league as Pittsburgh and St. Louis. That absolutely does not mean you shouldn't still consider it. If it's not right for you, it's not right for you, but don't make that judgment based on (a) the bickering in the DSM forum, which has a major troll problem or (b) the uninformed opinions of the masses in the General forum, whose groupthink dictates that a bigger city is always better.
I try not to post much about Des Moines in the General forum, because I know it's a mid-sized city in the Midwest and that's not what most people are looking for. I know it usually can't compete with bigger cities, and that's fine. But for you, looking at what you want from a city, I truly do think it's a good fit. Not the only fit, but a good one nonetheless, and it makes me sad to see that you seem to have gotten a wrong impression of it.
It may be a little influenced by that, which is silly. I haven't written it off. I'm still actively looking at job postings in the area and doing some research. I've actually applied for a few jobs in that area in the past week or so. I'm just saying it may be lower on the list as far as somewhere I would move without having a job first...but I don't know.
Decent cost of living with a chance of finding rental homes with a fenced yard. Our dog has issues (rescue dog with anxiety, etc.) and it's hard to take him on long walks.
For a two bedroom house:
Pittburgh Median rent: $699/mo,
Average rent: $560/mo
Louisville " " : $675/mo
" " : $860/mo
Columbus " " : $699
" " : $784
From Sperlings, with a US index set at 100
Pittsburgh Food: 106
Utilities: 103
Louisville: Food: 91
Utilties: 105
Columbus: Food: 92
Utilities: 100
Pittsburgh is the cheapest, it seems, for rent. From observation they do have a lot of little houses with fenced yards, so yeah ok for the dog. For food and utilities, trade-offs but it looks like Louisville for cheap food and Cols for cheap utilities.
Low crime
Using 2010 numbers and taking the raw numbers and dividing by city population to do a comparison:
So for property crime being safest its probably Pittsburg. Violent crime is less in Louisville. But the chances are higher that you'd be a vicitim of property crime, methinks? You might want to do some searches to get more details on this.
Low unemployment (with a decent amount of entry level full time jobs, if need be)
I think this would be Columbus (dont have the figures for entry-level so this is just a hunch), but here are the numbers for October (unemployment)
Louisville metro area: 8.0%
Pittsburgh metro : 7.3%
Columbus : 5.7%
Affordable rent
See above
Decent art scene
All three have decent art scenes.
Progressive and at least somewhat liberal
All three are progressive/liberal in their inner city areas but I would say across the board Pittburgh would be more liberal due to the voting pattersn out in the suburban areas, influenced by traditional New Deal Democrat/Union votes.
Columbus suburbia is pretty conservative (as in most of suburban Ohio outside of the Cleveland area). Louisville is sort of a split, with older blue collar areas (still) being Democratic and the eastern suburbs being as right/conservative as Columbus suburbia.
I think you get more of that bible belt cultural conservatism in Louisville and Columbus vs Pittsburgh, which is more Great Lakes/East Coast Catholic....meaning a more laid-back attitude towards things.
Somewhere that is growing
Columbus.
Open-minded people
All three.
LGBTQ friendly
heh, well, Im gay....I think there is some sort of rating out on this, but all three are pretty freindly.
Live music venues
Columbus and Louisville have pretty good live scenes. Dont know much about Pbgh.
Some quirkiness
Hmm..subjective....all three. To me, columbus is actually the quirkiest big city in Ohio, despite its "cow town" rep. Louisville is pretty bohemian, too. But I get the same feeling in Pittbsurgh, so you'd be about right for all three of these places.
Sustainable future - economy, climate, etc
Don't know about this. Not sure what you mean?
I want to say Pittsburgh since its more compact and has a pretty good transit system. The economy is now post-industrial, so this city has went through that transition and come out on the other side. Pittsburgh is also the most bike-oriented of the three..which is suprising given the hilly topography. I did some urban cycling there in the fall and was impressed....
Columbus probably the least since it's a big sprawlburg. Louisville is really getting into the green subculture (urban farming, localvore movement, etc), and always has been a bit this way with backyard and community gardening, but lags on the bike infrastructure.
Good for kids if we have any
Dont have kids & dont know.
Not terrible to navigate, driving, traffic - I'm somewhat bad at directions but I use a GPS and I'm better at stressful driving situations than most of my family, but that doesn't mean much.
All three are busy places.
For navigation...this rules out Pittsburgh, which, after Boston, is one of the easiest cities in the US to get lost in. I'd say Columbus for "easy to navigate". For traffic Louisville seems congested compared to what it used to be. Columbus has some big jams out in suburbia.
@@@
on edit, pm me so I can bill you for researching this ;-)
It may be a little influenced by that, which is silly. I haven't written it off. I'm still actively looking at job postings in the area and doing some research. I've actually applied for a few jobs in that area in the past week or so. I'm just saying it may be lower on the list as far as somewhere I would move without having a job first...but I don't know.
Great to hear. I'll just do one more shameless plug, then.
Just a reminder first of all that Des Moines has a 4.7% unemployment rate, so moving there without a job would not be all that risky. For comparison, this source lists KC at 6.2%, Louisville at 7.5%, Omaha at 3.9%, Pittsburgh at 6.6%, Columbus at 5.4%, and STL at 7.2%.
And a quick rundown of its most recent rankings (can't believe no one did this in the DSM forum - I guess I'm as at fault for that as anyone)...
#1 Best city for families (Kiplinger)
#4 Best place for business and careers (Forbes)
#2 Best place for jobs this summer (Forbes)
#2 Strongest local economy (Tech Journal)
One of America's best farmers' markets (Country Living)
#1 Best city for young professionals (Forbes)
#1 Richest metro in the nation (US News and World Report)
#3 Best city for business (MarketWatch)
#7 Best city for the next decade (Kiplinger)
#5 Best city for families (Parenting)
Decent cost of living with a chance of finding rental homes with a fenced yard. Our dog has issues (rescue dog with anxiety, etc.) and it's hard to take him on long walks.
For a two bedroom house:
Pittburgh Median rent: $699/mo,
Average rent: $560/mo
Louisville " " : $675/mo
" " : $860/mo
Columbus " " : $699
" " : $784
From Sperlings, with a US index set at 100
Pittsburgh Food: 106
Utilities: 103
Louisville: Food: 91
Utilties: 105
Columbus: Food: 92
Utilities: 100
Pittsburgh is the cheapest, it seems, for rent. From observation they do have a lot of little houses with fenced yards, so yeah ok for the dog. For food and utilities, trade-offs but it looks like Louisville for cheap food and Cols for cheap utilities.
Low crime
Using 2010 numbers and taking the raw numbers and dividing by city population to do a comparison:
So for property crime being safest its probably Pittsburg. Violent crime is less in Louisville. But the chances are higher that you'd be a vicitim of property crime, methinks? You might want to do some searches to get more details on this.
Low unemployment (with a decent amount of entry level full time jobs, if need be)
I think this would be Columbus (dont have the figures for entry-level so this is just a hunch), but here are the numbers for October (unemployment)
Louisville metro area: 8.0%
Pittsburgh metro : 7.3%
Columbus : 5.7%
Affordable rent
See above
Decent art scene
All three have decent art scenes.
Progressive and at least somewhat liberal
All three are progressive/liberal in their inner city areas but I would say across the board Pittburgh would be more liberal due to the voting pattersn out in the suburban areas, influenced by traditional New Deal Democrat/Union votes.
Columbus suburbia is pretty conservative (as in most of suburban Ohio outside of the Cleveland area). Louisville is sort of a split, with older blue collar areas (still) being Democratic and the eastern suburbs being as right/conservative as Columbus suburbia.
I think you get more of that bible belt cultural conservatism in Louisville and Columbus vs Pittsburgh, which is more Great Lakes/East Coast Catholic....meaning a more laid-back attitude towards things.
Somewhere that is growing
Columbus.
Open-minded people
All three.
LGBTQ friendly
heh, well, Im gay....I think there is some sort of rating out on this, but all three are pretty freindly.
Live music venues
Columbus and Louisville have pretty good live scenes. Dont know much about Pbgh.
Some quirkiness
Hmm..subjective....all three. To me, columbus is actually the quirkiest big city in Ohio, despite its "cow town" rep. Louisville is pretty bohemian, too. But I get the same feeling in Pittbsurgh, so you'd be about right for all three of these places.
Sustainable future - economy, climate, etc
Don't know about this. Not sure what you mean?
I want to say Pittsburgh since its more compact and has a pretty good transit system. The economy is now post-industrial, so this city has went through that transition and come out on the other side. Pittsburgh is also the most bike-oriented of the three..which is suprising given the hilly topography. I did some urban cycling there in the fall and was impressed....
Columbus probably the least since it's a big sprawlburg. Louisville is really getting into the green subculture (urban farming, localvore movement, etc), and always has been a bit this way with backyard and community gardening, but lags on the bike infrastructure.
Good for kids if we have any
Dont have kids & dont know.
Not terrible to navigate, driving, traffic - I'm somewhat bad at directions but I use a GPS and I'm better at stressful driving situations than most of my family, but that doesn't mean much.
All three are busy places.
For navigation...this rules out Pittsburgh, which, after Boston, is one of the easiest cities in the US to get lost in. I'd say Columbus for "easy to navigate". For traffic Louisville seems congested compared to what it used to be. Columbus has some big jams out in suburbia.
@@@
on edit, pm me so I can bill you for researching this ;-)
I think all of this is pretty accurate. The only issue is that Columbus' suburbs are not conservative. Most of them are moderate and some are liberal to moderate. Only the southwest suburbs are conservative (grove city, Hilliard) .
Great to hear. I'll just do one more shameless plug, then.
Just a reminder first of all that Des Moines has a 4.7% unemployment rate, so moving there without a job would not be all that risky. For comparison, this source lists KC at 6.2%, Louisville at 7.5%, Omaha at 3.9%, Pittsburgh at 6.6%, Columbus at 5.4%, and STL at 7.2%.
And a quick rundown of its most recent rankings (can't believe no one did this in the DSM forum - I guess I'm as at fault for that as anyone)...
#1 Best city for families (Kiplinger)
#4 Best place for business and careers (Forbes)
#2 Best place for jobs this summer (Forbes)
#2 Strongest local economy (Tech Journal)
One of America's best farmers' markets (Country Living)
#1 Best city for young professionals (Forbes)
#1 Richest metro in the nation (US News and World Report)
#3 Best city for business (MarketWatch)
#7 Best city for the next decade (Kiplinger)
#5 Best city for families (Parenting)
These "best of rankings" are all over for any city, but appear especially prominent in Louisville this year (and these are just from 2012):
Eat
1. Louisville was named one of the “Best Foodie Getaways around the World” by Zagat.
2. Louisville was named one of the top 10 Tastiest Towns by Southern Living.
3. Louisville’s MEAT was named one of the World’s 50 Best Bars 2012 by Drinks International.
4. Bootsnall.com listed Louisville as one of the “8 of the Best American Small Towns for Foodies.”
5. Louisville made the list for “The 10 Best College Towns for True Foodies” on thebestcolleges.org.
6. Harvest was named on Food & Wine’s “Best Southern Food in the U.S.” list.
7. Hammerheads’ chef was named top 10 in the region by Food & Wine Magazine.
8. Holy Grale restaurant was recognized in Draft Magazine’s list of America’s 100 Best Beer Bars, and in Food & Wine Magazine’s roundup of “Best Sliders in the U.S.”
Play
1. Louisville was named one of the Top 10 Cities for Affordable Vacations by Livability.com.
2. GQ magazine named Louisville “the manliest town in America.”
3. Louisville was named in the Top 6 Summer “Mancations” by TravelChannel.
4. Louisville was named in “Top 25 Best American Cities for Art” by American Style Magazine.
5. U.S. News named Louisville one of the Top 12 Best Getaways.
6. ABC City Guides for Kids named Louisville one of its Top 7 Family Destinations for 2012.
st. louis and pittsburgh are at least one league above the others.
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I'll just do one more shameless plug, then.
