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I guess there's no working poor and working-class in Philly? Philly has a median income of ~$37,000 which I wouldn't even consider middle-class, on the other hand I would consider 100k to be definitely middle-class (upper, rather than lower if we're distinguishing.)
My vote would be Houston/Dallas.
In this conversation, it is really important to discuss metro areas, since older cities in the Northeast and Midwest have much smaller cores without more affluent suburban areas incorporated into the city limits a la Dallas and Houston. By that measure, Philadelphia fares pretty well -- ranking 18th among the Top 100 metro areas. Dallas and Houston rank 33 and 34, respectively:
We also absolutely need to keep in mind cost-of-living differences. If two-thirds of your income is going to towards transportation and housing, then obviously a higher salary isn't getting you any further than a lower salary in a less expensive area.
By adding transportation and housing costs together, DC, Philly and Baltimore come out as the top 3 cities for moderate-income families in terms of affordability:
In this conversation, it is really important to discuss metro areas, since older cities in the Northeast and Midwest have much smaller cores without more affluent suburban areas incorporated into the city limits a la Dallas and Houston. By that measure, Philadelphia fares pretty well -- ranking 18th among the Top 100 metro areas. Dallas and Houston rank 33 and 34, respectively:
We also absolutely need to keep in mind cost-of-living differences. If two-thirds of your income is going to towards transportation and housing, then obviously a higher salary isn't getting you any further than a lower salary in a less expensive area.
By adding transportation and housing costs together, DC, Philly and Baltimore come out as the top 3 cities for moderate-income families in terms of affordability:
Raw income really means nothing in these comparisons.
I agree with everything you said, but there's a very good reason Baltimore comes in as a very affordable city. Property values, especially in the core of the city have gone through the floor. That city faces mass blight, crime, and poverty. It has its nice areas, boasted by a very prestigious university, but there's no denying that Baltimore is a very divided city with very high crime.
In this conversation, it is really important to discuss metro areas, since older cities in the Northeast and Midwest have much smaller cores without more affluent suburban areas incorporated into the city limits a la Dallas and Houston. By that measure, Philadelphia fares pretty well -- ranking 18th among the Top 100 metro areas. Dallas and Houston rank 33 and 34, respectively:
We also absolutely need to keep in mind cost-of-living differences. If two-thirds of your income is going to towards transportation and housing, then obviously a higher salary isn't getting you any further than a lower salary in a less expensive area.
By adding transportation and housing costs together, DC, Philly and Baltimore come out as the top 3 cities for moderate-income families in terms of affordability:
Raw income really means nothing in these comparisons.
Right. You've just post data that backs up what I said. Philadelphia ranks well for moderate-income affordability (which is defined as making about 70% of median income). Of course, Philadelphia's median income is actually about 58% of the median income of the average of the top 25 metro areas, a strong indicator that it does not have a healthy middle-class. The suburbs of Philadelphia might be more middle-class than Philadelphia itself, but that's a separate question.
If you take the 70% figure that defines moderate-income in the CNT study, you'll see that a moderate-income family in Philadelphia is bringing in $27,000 a year or $2,250 a month. Compared to the Philadelphia MSA average H+T expense of $2,000, it's a hard argument that the moderate-income households in Philadelphia are middle-class. They are households that are barely making ends meet at best and most likely only surviving on public assistance. Even the median-income households of Philadelphia aren't exactly rolling in the bacon. With a monthly income of $3089, they're paying more than 30% of their income on housing, which is the threshold HUD considers burdened.
Merely looking at how affordable a metro area is really does nothing to say how strong a middle-class base it has. Detroit isn't doing just about as well as Portland for the average middle-class family despite that the average metro costs and incomes are similar. Or to put it another way, good luck living in San Francisco on the median income, let alone 70% of median or moderate-income. The median-income household is going to be paying out more than 50% of their income on rent alone unless they (A) are single and have roommates or (B) are single and live in a studio apartment. San Francisco just isn't a great city to be middle-class and try and raise a family in, too expensive.
If you take the 70% figure that defines moderate-income in the CNT study, you'll see that a moderate-income family in Philadelphia is bringing in $27,000 a year or $2,250 a month. Compared to the Philadelphia MSA average H+T expense of $2,000, it's a hard argument that the moderate-income households in Philadelphia are middle-class. They are households that are barely making ends meet at best and most likely only surviving on public assistance. Even the median-income households of Philadelphia aren't exactly rolling in the bacon. With a monthly income of $3089, they're paying more than 30% of their income on housing, which is the threshold HUD considers burdened.
The CNT data is a bit more complex than you're suggesting. Using your example of 27K/year, families in this income bracket will most likely not be living in an area where housing and transportation costs are anywhere near 2,000/month.
If you look at the link below from CNT, it breaks down the data by block group. You'll see that essentially the entire city of Philadelphia (which absolutely contains the highest concentration of low-income families in the Philly region) is paying a fairly low percentage of income towards housing and transportation costs -- below the 30% HUD threshold for affordability.
When you can buy a rowhome for about 50K and have access to plentiful bus/subway transportation, this is what keeps Philly generally affordable for even lower-middle class families.
Merely looking at how affordable a metro area is really does nothing to say how strong a middle-class base it has. Detroit isn't doing just about as well as Portland for the average middle-class family despite that the average metro costs and incomes are similar. Or to put it another way, good luck living in San Francisco on the median income, let alone 70% of median or moderate-income. The median-income household is going to be paying out more than 50% of their income on rent alone unless they (A) are single and have roommates or (B) are single and live in a studio apartment. San Francisco just isn't a great city to be middle-class and try and raise a family in, too expensive.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Despite perceptions, metro Detroit does indeed have a solid middle-class.
And yes, generally speaking, some cities such as San Francisco are all around very expensive -- no matter how you parse the data. However, as I suggested, you have to examine local housing markets to determine the availability of areas with a decent stock of affordable housing (relative to incomes). That's where the CNT map comes in handy.
When you can buy a rowhome for about 50K and have access to plentiful bus/subway transportation, this is what keeps Philly generally affordable for even lower-middle class families.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with it having a solid middle-class. In 2012, the median house sold in Detroit for under $10,000. Either Detroit has a much stronger middle-class base because housing stock is so cheap or housing stock being cheap really has nothing to do with having a strong middle-class base. In fact, that you can buy a rowhouse for about $50k is a pretty good indicator that there isn't a good middle-class base. We're just piling on the data. There's towns in the Bay Area that are relatively cheap as well. Median asking price in San Pablo, CA, is $130,000. It's more middle-class than Philly in that it has a lower poverty rate, but isn't exactly a middle-class stronghold.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Despite perceptions, metro Detroit does indeed have a solid middle-class.
Right. Except that's a separate topic that this thread isn't about. The thread is about what cities has the strongest and healthiest middle class. Detroit does not. Philly does in comparison to Detroit, but not overall. Both certainly have some middle-class, more so with Philly, but that again isn't the topic at hand. Whenever you have a large spread between median income in the principal city and the metro as a whole, it's a strong sign that the city does not have strong middle-class. I'd call Philly's $37k versus the metro's $63k a significant difference.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with it having a solid middle-class. In 2012, the median house sold in Detroit for under $10,000. Either Detroit has a much stronger middle-class base because housing stock is so cheap or housing stock being cheap really has nothing to do with having a strong middle-class base. In fact, that you can buy a rowhouse for about $50k is a pretty good indicator that there isn't a good middle-class base.
I think you're tying real estate prices too much to the presence of a middle class. A city can have relatively low priced real estate and still have a strong middle class.
You also don't seem to acknowledge that "middle class" means something different in various cities. Again, incomes have to be considered in relation to cost-of-living. $80,000/year definitely won't make you feel wealthy in NYC, whereas it absolutely would in Detroit.
In other words, incomes are market-based and are in response to cost-of-living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
Whenever you have a large spread between median income in the principal city and the metro as a whole, it's a strong sign that the city does not have strong middle-class. I'd call Philly's $37k versus the metro's $63k a significant difference.
I can agree with you here. There absolutely is income stratification in Philly, and I agree that it would not be best city to consider as a stronghold of the middle class. I was more speaking to the metro area, overall.
A bell chart looking at income distribution in a particular area (aligned with cost-of-living) is probably the most useful data for determining how large that area's middle class is.
I think you're tying real estate prices too much to the presence of a middle class. A city can have relatively low priced real estate and still have a strong middle class.
You also don't seem to acknowledge that "middle class" means something different in various cities. Again, incomes have to be considered in relation to cost-of-living. $80,000/year definitely won't make you feel wealthy in NYC, whereas it absolutely would in Detroit.
In other words, incomes are market-based and are in response to cost-of-living.
Not so much though, which is one of the things CNT, which was more concerned with moderate-income or what I would calling working-class affordable, got spot on. Minnie and Philly (Metro) both have high median incomes and low median home prices. San Francisco and DC both have high median incomes and high median home prices. More relevant than just looking at the absolute dollar amount is to look at the dollar amount compared to the surrounding areas. If demand is relatively low in the city (Minnie, Philly) compared ot the metro, it's a pretty strong indicator that the middle-class (those with means, but not necessarily bottomless wallets) just don't want to live there. The more competitive housing is, the more that's true. That leads to pretty astronomical discrepancies in real estate pricing somewhere like the Bay Area. Another good indicator is schools.
"Sixteen of Pennsylvania's 25 top public schools for average 2012 SAT scores were in the five-county area, with the top-ranked school - and almost all the lowest - in Philadelphia, according to a state study." Best, worst of area's SATs - Philly.com
Philly Metro has most of the top schools, or more accurately, top students. Philly itself... no. Middle-class will pay more to avoid going to bad schools, which is reflected in the discrepancy in Philly real estate prices versus surrounding 'burbs real estate prices. In absolute prices, sure, Philly's burbs being priced in the $300-500 range? is nothing by Bay Area standards (Cupertino, $1.3 million; Mountain View, $900k; Pleasanton, $750k; Hercules, which is not middle-class, $390k). Bay Area might be more affluent than Philly Metro, but not that much more. Bay Area and DC are both markets with a health upper middle-class, but not so much overall. The lower middle-class struggles in those areas to say nothing of moderate-income/working-class households. As Metro Areas, I would say Philly or Atlanta are both healthier for the middle-class overall than DC, Bay Area, or NYC and it's immediate surroundings (the metro is so large it's almost useless to consider it as one area). DC, Bay Area, and NYC are all very top heavy. They're, imo, great areas for the upper middle-class, but unless you're bringing in $150k+ are difficult to live what at least I generally consider a middle-class lifestyle (good schools, low crime, enough discretionary income to not be paycheck to paycheck). They have other appeals, however, even if they fail at being financially comfortable places to live which is why so many young people flock there and live in small shoe box apartments with roommates. As far as jobs, you're seeing a lot of companies fleeing costs both by locating outside principal cities and by moving to more moderately priced metro areas. To entice someone on monetary compensation from somewhere in Texas who is making $90k to San Jose you're looking at a salary of $140-150k to just be even. Boston isn't much different, which is why you have places like Greensboro, NC, seeing the biotech growth it is. Sure, it's nowhere near Boston or San Francisco or even Seattle, but you simply can pay less.
Quote:
I can agree with you here. There absolutely is income stratification in Philly, and I agree that it would not be best city to consider as a stronghold of the middle class. I was more speaking to the metro area, overall.
A bell chart looking at income distribution in a particular area (aligned with cost-of-living) is probably the most useful data for determining how large that area's middle class is.
Yes, and yes. Looking at individual data blips (median income, median home price, SAT scores) can only tell you so much.
On paper this might appear to be the case using these numbers...but using a COL of comparison and it would be a very different story.
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Originally Posted by Summersm343
You're also forgetting to equate the drastic cost of living differences in each area
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Originally Posted by bradjl2009
You do realize there are cost of living differences between different parts of the country right?
i factored COL into my post, why do you think i used a higher income threshold for DC? some of you seriously need to learn to read.
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