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Old 07-24-2013, 01:07 PM
 
Location: New York
541 posts, read 907,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
I actually totally understand this point, also the topography (well say outside of LI which is basically a huge sand bar of sorts ok over simplified). You would not see anything like a West Chester County, or Bergen or Morris etc in Chicago with the rolling terrain and absolutely hardly any grid at all, esp with wide roads and long fence lines etc seperating the gridded sub-divisions. Again I am generalizing but they feel and look a lot different, just as west coast development feels different in this sense, much has to do with timing and also the terrain to be honest (as well as weather that impacts building types and even road infrastructure)

Lastly Chicago never gives me that small "old" downtown clustering with radiating diminishing denisity you get in many east coast burbs, its more uniform

I prefer the east coast set up but is what I grew up with so am sure that factors, I do like the landscape better regardless, chicagoland is very flat to me, or at least what I am used to

Pretty much. As a Northeasterner its just what im used to as well.

Chicago does have suburbs like ones found here but you have to look.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:46 PM
 
517 posts, read 673,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest1 View Post
I could name dozens and dozens of Chicago suburbs that have more dense downtowns built around train stations, a large number of which totally predate the automobile.

if you are at all interested in disabusing yourself of certain preconceived notions, this article is a good place to start.

The Urbanophile » Blog Archive » Suburban Downtown Booms
Obviously every city has suburbs with downtowns.

They're referring to the Northeastern layout, where you have winding colonial roads, a town green, and the like. High density than practically country. Places like Morristown, NJ, Greenwich, CT, Mount Kisco, NY, etc.

That typology doesn't really exist in Chicagoland. In Chicagoland, you have a grid, and the commercial streets roughly every mile. You also don't go from high density to virtual country, then back to high density. It's more of a moderate-medium suburban density throughout.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCH_CDM View Post
Obviously every city has suburbs with downtowns.

They're referring to the Northeastern layout, where you have winding colonial roads, a town green, and the like. High density than practically country. Places like Morristown, NJ, Greenwich, CT, Mount Kisco, NY, etc.

That typology doesn't really exist in Chicagoland. In Chicagoland, you have a grid, and the commercial streets roughly every mile. You also don't go from high density to virtual country, then back to high density. It's more of a moderate-medium suburban density throughout.
There is no typology to Chicago suburbs, they are as diverse as Chicago neighborhoods. The thing that makes both cities' suburbs SIMILAR is how they choose to interface with their geographical/transit relationships with the nearby mega-city.

The majority of Chicago suburbs, when it comes to their own downtown development, are hitching their wagons to central Chicago. They see their train stations to the Loop as their ultimate calling card.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:11 PM
 
517 posts, read 673,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest1 View Post
There is no typology to Chicago suburbs, they are as diverse as Chicago neighborhoods.
Totally disagree. Chicago suburbs do have a typology, which is the same as the Midwest typology, with commercial roads every mile or so, a grid layout, and generally flat density.

This is very different from in the New York area, where it's a Northeast typology, with random commercial roads, no grid layout, and highly variable density.
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest1 View Post
The thing that makes both cities' suburbs SIMILAR is how they choose to interface with their geographical/transit relationships with the nearby mega-city.
Also totally disagree. There is nothing unique in the geographical/transit relationship between these two cities' suburbs. The same thing exists in every major metropolitan area, especially those with rail and big downtown areas.

If you go to DC, or SF, or Boston, or Philly, you see the exact same thing.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:29 PM
 
787 posts, read 1,688,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCH_CDM View Post
Totally disagree. Chicago suburbs do have a typology, which is the same as the Midwest typology, with commercial roads every mile or so, a grid layout, and generally flat density.

This is very different from in the New York area, where it's a Northeast typology, with random commercial roads, no grid layout, and highly variable density.

Also totally disagree. There is nothing unique in the geographical/transit relationship between these two cities' suburbs. The same thing exists in every major metropolitan area, especially those with rail and big downtown areas.

If you go to DC, or SF, or Boston, or Philly, you see the exact same thing.
I would exclude DC from that list. But that description is definitely true of Boston and Philly.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCH_CDM View Post
Also totally disagree. There is nothing unique in the geographical/transit relationship between these two cities' suburbs. The same thing exists in every major metropolitan area, especially those with rail and big downtown areas.

If you go to DC, or SF, or Boston, or Philly, you see the exact same thing.
Again, I need to throw my hands up in the air and say, whatever. You East Coasters are so omniscient.

There are upwards of 300 Chicago suburbs spread over 3 states. Some are old industrial river cities that existed independently of Chicago, places like Elgin and Aurora. Some were, in the mid-19th century small farm villages. Others grew up along the various lines leading to the WORLD'S LARGEST RAIL NEXUS.

But if it makes you feel better, they are all the same. Just a bunch of strip malls. Nothing to see here, move along.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCH_CDM View Post

Also totally disagree. There is nothing unique in the geographical/transit relationship between these two cities' suburbs. The same thing exists in every major metropolitan area, especially those with rail and big downtown areas.

If you go to DC, or SF, or Boston, or Philly, you see the exact same thing.
Never said unique, I said similar.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:53 PM
 
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and for educational purposes....let me introduce you to the Fox River Valley. It is not the Grand Canyon by any means but it does have a bit of topography.

Fox Valley (Illinois) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suburbs such as Elgin, Batavia, St. Charles, and Aurora have downtowns (with train lines to Chicago) that lie in a "valley" that was connected to New Orleans over a century ago, bypassing Chicago.

At times, the Chicago "Grid" was allowed/built into such regions but it hardly defines them.

And for what it is worth, Northwest Indiana, a region of some 800,000 has no connection whatsoever to the Chicago grid.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:18 PM
 
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and next time you are in Chicago (if ever) and find yourself on a diagonal road....such as Milwaukee Avenue in Wicker Park...., remember, those are older than any Colonial era town roads...Chicago itself is a native name, might want to think twice before tossing about history and authenticity when trying to diminish Chicagolandia.

"Indian trails the major ancient Indian trails in and around Chicago, as well as additional trails that developed before 1830, are still visible on modern road maps, often as diagonal streets: Lincoln Avenue, Clark Street, Ogden Avenue, Archer Avenue, and Vincennes Avenue. With the coming of Europeans, the trails first became bridle paths, then roads for wagons, then stage and mail routes. For information on individual major trails in the area, see entries under Sauk (Sac) Trail, Vincennes Trail, Hubbard Trace, Calumet-Tolleston Beach Trail, Trail Creek Trail, Lake Shore Trail, Green Bay Trail, Portage Trail, Lake Trail, Cottage Grove Trail, Archer Trail (Old Chicago Trail), Barry Point Trail, and the Fort Dearborn-Detroit Road. The accompanying drawing is by George Catlin from his book Souvenir of the North American Indians, published in London in 1852

Last edited by midwest1; 07-24-2013 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:23 PM
 
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and here is a nice map

Economic Origins of Metropolitan Chicago Communities




Economic Origins of Metropolitan Chicago Communities

"The classification of community types displayed on this map is based primarily upon entries in this encyclopedia. Identifications reflect the initial impetus for clustered settlement beyond agricultural use, effectively the initial step in the urbanization process. Note the relationship between history and geography. Eight old industrial satellite cities ring the metropolis at a distance of about 25 to 40 miles, while old agricultural trade centers stud the region as a whole. Canal towns line the Illinois & Michigan Canal heading out of Chicago to the southwest, while communities that started as railroad suburbs line the major commuter railroad corridors. Later automobile-era suburbs fill in many of the interstitial spaces. Industrial suburbs of varying age appear with greater frequency on the near west and south sides of the metropolitan area, while recreational towns are more abundant to the north and northwest. "
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