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I was wrong on the number of black churches in the area. I initially said there were only two or three, it seems now that maybe there are four times that amount. Specific region I'm speaking of is the Southern Tier----Elmira, Binghamton, Ithaca, and Corning. That was where I lived, that is the area I'm most familiar with...
I'm not sure how I implied that people up here haven't gone to HBCU's. What I said was there are no HBCU's, so there is no HBCU culture...
Now, please forgive me if I misunderstood your question, but @southernsoul, I'm going to try to answer your question as best as possible. Please keep in mind that @ck are speaking form two different vantage points; I'm relocated, and he's not really a native, he grew up in Syracuse where there is much more of a black influence and culture, but he's a native in the sense that he is from and familiar with the general area...
No, native blacks in Upstate New York (I also lived in Albany for a short stretch, about four months), specifically in the Southern Tier where there is lesser black population, are not any "closer" than blacks in regions with more black representation. In the Southern Tier, blacks have roots to pretty much all the Southeast states. That doesn't make for a closer type of kinship, though; by that measure, there is no unique characteristic to the black family here...
There definitely isn't an excitement or extra willingness the stick together. Understand that to natives, they don't know, they don't don't really realize they live in a sparsely black-populated region. Trust me, this is evident, even in conversations online between natives and non-natives. So there isn't necessarily any excitement to see other blacks. Elmira is the blackest city, officially 14.6%. To people interested in stats, well, that is greater than the national average. Again, though, to you and I, this is something completely different...
An interesting dynamic I experienced was the attraction between transplants. Something that is unable to be intelligently expressed online, is the mental state of Upstate New York. It's regressive, it's hopeless on several levels, and transplants realize this, it's instant. Believe me, I've had this convo with many people, and even my aunt (uncle's wife) found this insulting, but this area is geographically isolated from so much. Many, many people have never left (as in lived outside of) New York State. So transplants are able to establish quicker relationships, because we're not caught in the end-all, be-all world of New York....
That said, they aren't unwelcoming to transplants of any race. There just isn't a welcome mat rolled out for transplants or other blacks. My whole family is black (I have white extended family). The people in my uncle's family's "circle of friends", so to speak, were very accepting of me, but then, my uncle is something of a mini-celebrity. I was able to make acquaintances outside that circle, though. I think the main point in trying to say is that because natives don't realize that there isn't a lot of "us", there is no gratification or real willingness from seeing another black...
To speak to connections, one of the first people I met was a girl (black) from Sumter, SC. I'm familiar with the city, and we were cool, but not right. Again, I met blacks with roots from all the southeast states, especially Florida and SC. It's a point of recognizance, but it's not something that creates a deeper bond...
I'm very hard on the black community of Upstate New York. Whether rightfully so or not, my opinion is based on the experiences of not just living beyond NY, but being FROM beyond NY. I've lived in seven states. When you've experienced "better"---and we all understand that the USA in general isn't a black man's paradise, so keep my usage of "better" in context---you have an expectation for your people, an expectation of the awareness and the significance that our blackness has on us and our environs. I didn't even realize I had these expectations or awareness-es until I live there. What I AM NOT saying is that @southernsoul would have the same experiences as I...
What I am saying is that coming from Macon, a city of majority blacks and a region long on black culture and significance, you would notice the differences when comparing blacks up here. Nobody should confuse this as South/North differences, that isn't what I mean, and it shouldn't be inferred. What I am saying is that understanding black culture as you know it, it is very, very different in Upstate NY, in attitude, in action...
Black culture is still evolving in New York; follow me, there's credence to what I'm saying. I'm from Central Virginia. There has been a significant black populous and impact on the region for 400 years. You cannot live in the region without feeling the black presence, the black hallmarks and institutions. It's embedded in the soil, no matter what race you are, you grow up with an innate understanding of it; it doesn't have to be questioned or explained. @southernsoul is from Macon, GA. I don't know how long there has been major black contributions to the area, but probably for a long, long, time. Blacks just became a part of New York. Sure, there is significance to the Underground Railroad here, there has been a black "population" for a long time, if we're singling out specific persons or events in history, but as a group that has a weighted significance and what one would define as rich history, it just started, and is still growing. 100 years ago there were next to nil blacks Upstate, in any of the major cities, by population raw numbers or percentage. Hell, even 45 years ago (1970) the big cities (Buff/Roc/Cuse/Alb) were all less than 15% black, less than 10% even. My grandfather moved his family (my mom) to Elmira from Memphis is 1968, about four months after Dr. King was killed, when my mom was about 8 months old. Elmira is only 15% black today. In 1968 it was less than 5%. The migration of blacks to Upstate New York is largely a recent and new phenomenon, one that still hasn't the cultural magnitude of its own black history....
Black history in Elmira, black culture? We can tout the black churches all we want, the ancestry of natives to the South all we want. Try to look up or research Slabtown or Lackanegro, and see how many hits you find. Two lost relics of Elmira's black history, one that certainly wasn't appreciated in its time, and one that is remembered/known of by black Elmirans, but one in which there is no push to restore or educate citizens on that history. The "black history" museum was shuttered and closed when I lived there, and looked as if it had been so for years, over by Hathorn Court.
Last, if the question is can you find blacks or black-interest groups in which to build/have a social circle? Of course. But if the question is, is there the amount of cultural and social oppurtunities for blacks? Hell no. If the question is, do the native blacks have an identity as unified or relevant as what you're used to, what you'd expect? Hell.to.the.NO. It would take at least double or more the existing black churches, more than a single black mayor in a diverse town of less than 7% black, more of a black social network, more black political representation, more black-owned businesses, a measurable black middle class, etc etc etc.....
Again, I have to respond to some of this. I believe Elmira was actually a little higher than 5% Black in 1970, at around 8% Black. Buffalo was 20% Black in 1970. Rochester was about 16% Black and Syracuse was just under 11% Black in that census.
While Syracuse had one of the fastest growing Black populations between the end of World War 2 and 1970, there has always been Black people in the area and Upstate NY. Auburn's first non Native (American) settlers were a Revolutionary War officer, 2 enslaved Black people and that officers daughter. It also had a free Black population going back at the very least 150 years ago. One of the first settlers of the Fulton area was a Black Revolutionary War veteran who came from Montgomery County, in between Utica and Schenectady. You have this video, which is in the thread I posted earlier and suggested for a reason: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7aoHIVkpfs In the city of Albany, there is an area called the Pastures that had a free Black population centuries ago. There are other examples, which are in that thread as well, which show that Black people have been in Upstate NY for centuries in many capacities and came in various ways since the 1600's.
Also, I think it goes without saying why there is a difference in Black demographics between the areas mentioned and that there is going to be a difference in the degree of Black visibility, as well as institutions. There's also an aspect like immigration that has to be considered in relation to demographics. I think everyone that has participated and read this thread understand that.
As for the close knit thing, I think the same thing is being said in different ways. In many of these small cities, many of the Black people are also related and in turn, may be pretty ho-hum with each other due to seeing each other quite a bit. So, while it may not be head nods all of the time, it may be due to said folks literally seeing each other quite a bit anyway.
I also have to address this, as I think people have to be careful about assuming where people may or may not have lived. I've actually spent time in MI and GA, personally and you may get people that grow up in a place, leave, then come back. So, you find this up here or anywhere, for that matter. Same goes for awareness.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 09-13-2015 at 05:31 AM..
I don't know why you think I'm assuming people haven't left. I did not say that no one has lived out of state, nor that anyone hasn't left and come back. And that statement wasn't addressed to you on a personal level, either...
Brother, the awareness is different in the Southern Tier. I can't make you agree with me, I can't make you understand it, because we've experienced the Southern Tier differently--me as a transplant, you essentially as a native. And I'm cool that you don't agree with me, but there just is not the same level of black awareness, or the same respect for our own blackness, or the respect for our blackness from other cultures. I'm not creating these scenarios in my head, which it seems you're insinuating, with the forceful rebuttal of my perceptions as an outsider (I do need to be corrected where I'm factually wrong, though)....
I'm not saying there hasn't been black people in these areas since the 1600s or whenever. You are taking what I am saying out of context. As low by as there has been a black "population" in the Southern Tier, it has been small and relatively non-influential. In the bigger cities, it is different. I have also been to Auburn, really enjoy that town, and was pleasantly surprised by the amount of good looking women there, compared to the other small cities. That city isn't really different, though, in the reach and impact and scope of blacks on the city, so it fits the descriptives of the Southern Tier blacks....
The only place I found the black experience better was in the big cities. And Buffalo has an asterisk, and admittedly I didn't go often, but there is so much segregation and poverty, it is difficult to imagine there is an overall enjoyable black experience there. Syracuse definitely offers a deeper network and integration of blacks into the community and systems of the city than anywhere, including Albany...
I don't know why you think I'm assuming people haven't left. I did not say that no one has lived out of state, nor that anyone hasn't left and come back. And that statement wasn't addressed to you on a personal level, either...
Brother, the awareness is different in the Southern Tier. I can't make you agree with me, I can't make you understand it, because we've experienced the Southern Tier differently--me as a transplant, you essentially as a native. And I'm cool that you don't agree with me, but there just is not the same level of black awareness, or the same respect for our own blackness, or the respect for our blackness from other cultures. I'm not creating these scenarios in my head, which it seems you're insinuating, with the forceful rebuttal of my perceptions as an outsider (I do need to be corrected where I'm factually wrong, though)....
I'm not saying there hasn't been black people in these areas since the 1600s or whenever. You are taking what I am saying out of context. As low by as there has been a black "population" in the Southern Tier, it has been small and relatively non-influential. In the bigger cities, it is different. I have also been to Auburn, really enjoy that town, and was pleasantly surprised by the amount of good looking women there, compared to the other small cities. That city isn't really different, though, in the reach and impact and scope of blacks on the city, so it fits the descriptives of the Southern Tier blacks....
The only place I found the black experience better was in the big cities. And Buffalo has an asterisk, and admittedly I didn't go often, but there is so much segregation and poverty, it is difficult to imagine there is an overall enjoyable black experience there. Syracuse definitely offers a deeper network and integration of blacks into the community and systems of the city than anywhere, including Albany...
I'm actually not disagreeing with your experience, as I'm not into doing that to anyone. I'm just saying that it may be more complex, I guess, for a lack of a better explanation. Meaning, I can completely see what you are talking about, but maybe I just want to be fair to the Black people that are professionals/business owners, are in/lead organizations that are geared towards Black people, the Black history that is there and so on. I just think we as a people need to do that.
As with Buffalo, it is the same thing. While there is segregation and poverty that are issues within the community, at large and with many "Rust Belt" areas, you also have a Black Chamber of Commerce; a Black owned radio station along with 2 others geared towards the community, there is a "newspaper" geared towards the community in the Buffalo Challenger, some smaller highly/predominately Black middle class areas and a few/some highly/predominately Black high schools with high graduation rates, among some other things. Again, many, if not all of these things are in that thread.
I believe that Albany has a Black Chamber of Commerce, an African American Cultural Center and I believe Upstate NY's Blackest high school in Green Tech Charter, which may also be in that thread.
This honestly isn't personal and I am wrong at times. Plus, I really wanted to talk about or see what people from such cities in other states like Waterloo IA, Omaha, etc experience.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 09-13-2015 at 07:39 AM..
I'm actually not disagreeing with your experience, as I'm not into doing that to anyone. I'm just saying that it may be more complex, I guess, for a lack of a better explanation. Meaning, I can completely see what you are talking about, but maybe I just want to be fair to the Black people that are professionals/business owners, are in/lead organizations that are geared towards Black people, the Black history that is there and so on. I just think we as a people need to do that.
As with Buffalo, it is the same thing. While there is segregation and poverty that are issues within the community, at large and with many "Rust Belt" areas, you also have a Black Chamber of Commerce; a Black owned radio station along with 2 others geared towards the community, there is a "newspaper" geared towards the community in the Buffalo Challenger, some smaller highly/predominately Black middle class areas and a few/some highly/predominately Black high schools with high graduation rates, among some other things. Again, many, if not all of these things are in that thread.
I believe that Albany has a Black Chamber of Commerce, an African American Cultural Center and I believe Upstate NY's Blackest high school in Green Tech Charter, which may also be in that thread.
This honestly isn't personal and I am wrong at times. Plus, I really wanted to talk about or see what people from such cities in other states like Waterloo IA, Omaha, etc experience.
lol Yeah, man.....If you are asking due to the comment about Waterloo and Omaha, it is in relation to SouthernSoulBro's question and to possibly hear from Black folks from such places. If it isn't, why do you ask? I actually thought that there may be a misinterpretation of what I've been saying.
Looking at schools may be another way to view this thread. Here are some that may fit the original criteria for some of the cities mentioned: Benson Magnet High School - Public School
I'm FB friends with a young Black pastor of an AME Zion church plant/mission in Tucson. As a matter of fact, there seems to be representation from most of the major Black Christian denominations in Tucson (Baptist, AME, AME Zion, CME, COGIC, Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, etc.).
Looking at schools may be another way to view this thread. Here are some that may fit the original criteria for some of the cities mentioned: Benson Magnet High School - Public School
I know some if those schools very well especially the ones in michigan. Muskegon heights in Michigan that city is probably 90% black. Muskegon has a high black population. In grand rapids Ottawa hills my former school is probably 90% black. In the state of Michigan it is school of choice so most of those inner city schools are left with the poorest of poor black and Hispanic kids. Also crest on is closed they moved city high school there which is nationally accredited. Union high which isn't on there has a high black population. Actually grand rapids has only 2, high schools now. Also I know John Marshall in Oklahoma city but there is centennial, Douglas, spencer and northeast that are nearly all black.
Oklahoma city should be a city in this discussion there is a lot of black here but its like they are ashamed of it they would rather rep their native american heritage that be called black. Also there is a hbcu in the metro with langston university and its alot if nearby town with high black population like spencer, jones and Choctaw.
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