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Don't put any arguments on me that I haven't made, if so, post the exact quote when I said that they aren't in the same CSA. I said that they do not function as a single region. Better yet, I'll treat them as one single entity. Deal?
We'll see how this plays out.
You still don't understand....
Miami-Fort Lauderdale is one television market. But that does not include Palm Beach County which is also South Florida and part of the Miami MSA and CSA. I'm not talking about Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, I'm talking about ALL of South FL MSA/CSA. That's what's comparable to the Baltimore-DC region, not just Miami, FTL.
This is it's own media market. Separate from Miami ft Lauderdale. There's over 1 million people across this stretch.
39. West Palm Beach-Fort Pierce, Florida- Indian River, Martin, Okeechobee, Palm Beach, St. Lucie- 870,720
Media markets don't determine anything related to this thread about MSA/CSA's so it's a wonder why you would even bring that up here.
Last edited by the resident09; 07-23-2021 at 09:36 AM..
I personally think it's silly to try to pretend MSA is perfect and has no flaws. Counties are arbitrary political divisions and inconsistent in size from metro to metro. If you use a consistent definition of a built up urban area that doesn't drop under 1000 people per square mile you start to see which cities are more appropriately defined by their CSA or MSA.
No one is pretending or has said that MSA is perfect. Have you even actually looked at the map of urban areas? There are literally dozens of them that are statistically separated, sometimes right down the middle, regardless of that 1000ppsm requirement. It is meaningless when they split contiguous tracks and consider them different on paper.
I have literally no stake in DC and no reason to boost it using CSA numbers. I don't even necessarily ascribe to CSA numbers per se but in the case of DC I do feel it is one of the cases where it paints a more accurate picture, and every time I have been in the area, DC and Baltimore have always felt like a massive dual metropolis. I'm not the only one who thinks this in here. Seems about half feel the same way and half don't. Those that don't seem to be clinging to a historical distinction imo.This is why I'm saying demographia's urbanized area numbers feel the most accurate. As it still has Washington quite a bit behind Chicago, but definitely ahead of everywhere else.
I personally think it's silly to try to pretend MSA is perfect and has no flaws. Counties are arbitrary political divisions and inconsistent in size from metro to metro. If you use a consistent definition of a built up urban area that doesn't drop under 1000 people per square mile you start to see which cities are more appropriately defined by their CSA or MSA.
For large cities there is practically no difference between UAs and MSA’s in rankings.
CSA is very dumb though. Nobody in the world thinks Boston is +/-13% smaller than Chicago.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue
It's a simple yes or no. Does Baltimore feel like a metro the size of Chicago?
You're just sounding silly now. You know the points that are being made, but yet refuse to accept what's factual, and tip toe around them.
There are dual or tri nodal metro areas in the US, and there are singular.
SF-Oakland-San Jose Bay Area
Washington DC- Baltimore-NOVA
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Palm Beach
Boston-Providence-NH
Are larger overall broader regions than the primary city of those metropolitan regions. They are multi-nodal metropolises. Chicago is not, Chicago will never be, neither will Atlanta, nor Houston etc. They aren't even in the same category so what are you bringing them up for? Compare apples to apples so you can start making more sense. Only Miami from that list above qualifies as an MSA because of the housing density along the coast. And even then is split into two different media markets contradicting your point of bringing that up.
Does Baltimore "Feel" like Chicago? Wth are you really talking about? This is the silliest discussion I've heard here. Chicago doesn't have a city/metro area interrupting it's progress for another 90 miles. Simply look at a map, it's truly not that confusing.
Last edited by the resident09; 07-23-2021 at 10:51 AM..
Using urban area numbers from 2019 and combining the ones that have no breaks in developement and fall below 1000 people per square mile I got the following populations
1. New York: 20.55m
2. Los Angeles: 15.58m (Includes Riverside UA)
3. Chicago: 9.00m
4. Washington/Baltimore: 7.34m
5. San Francisco: 6.60m (Includes San Jose UA)
6. Dallas/Fort Worth: 6.58m
7. Miami: 6.08m
8. Houston: 6.05m
9. Boston: 5.9m (Includes Providence and Nashua)
10. Philadelphia: 5.66m
11. Atlanta: 5.29m
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,568,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
For large cities there is practically no difference between UAs and MSA’s in rankings.
CSA is very dumb though. Nobody in the world thinks Boston is +/-13% smaller than Chicago.
It's not dumb because it's an actual measurement of something. The metric doesn't match City vs City. . Just like MSA is another measurement of something, as is UA, Demographia UA, Urban Agglomeration etc.
How many Census' does it take for that to get through people's skulls...Do you know what a CSA stands for?
"Combined statistical area (CSA) is a United States Office of Management and Budget (OMB) term for a combination of adjacent metropolitan (MSA) and micropolitan statistical areas (µSA) across the 50 US states and the territory of Puerto Rico that can demonstrate economic or social linkage.The OMB defines a CSA as consisting of various combinations of adjacent metropolitan and micropolitan areas with economic ties measured by commuting patterns. These areas that combine retain their own designations as metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas within the larger combined statistical area."
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo
This is an incredibly subjective assertion. There are only a few urban areas in the country that are above 7 million and they are all larger than Washington DC. It is VERY difficult to say this feels like the urban area of X size city since so much of what urban areas offer are reliant on is based on market size and not immediate urbanity.
Even with the adamant nature of your claims I think you’re on an island here. When in DC you’re not feeling a 7 million person UA at all. You’re feeling the built environment and energy of one of the nations top 10 metro’s. Baltimores closer proximity is not close enough, or intertwined enough to make it feel like a Chicago or Toronto at all, which is the type of city you’re trying to assert here via CSA.
This is a perfect example of how CSA is used on this website to over-inflate city size. It’s typically a homer/boosting function.
This is very very false IMO. How much time have you spent in the DC-Baltimore area actually?
Beyond the fact that the DC-Baltimore combined region overall is more populous than Toronto, and now Chicago (by CSA only I won't even go there).
Saying that the DC-Baltimore region doesn't feel extremely expansive and like one of the largest in the country is just off. You're talking a lot just about "DC", which is the issue here.
The only metric where DC-Baltimore are not combined into one are from US metrics that purposely break them up for political purposes using MSA and UA. All the other major population metrics combine the two metropolises and count them as one greater region with two poles.
Washington-United States of America- 8,550,000 CUA incl. Baltimore
Radius population 25 miles Washington DC Downtown
5,296,034
Radius population 50 miles Washington DC Downtown
8,116,607
Radius population 25 miles from downtown Baltimore
2,749,022
Radius population 50 miles from downtown Baltimore
7,998,744
The 25 sq mile radius population of just Washington D.C. is only 700,000 less than the 25 sq mile radius of Chicago which is 6,025,765. The urban expansiveness isn't built out as uniform or into one larger urban grid like Chicago, but the heavy population is there.
There are no metrics where when combined as one region the DC-Baltimore area have less than at least 7.5 million people. The city proper is 38 miles line to line, and their two beltways are 18 miles apart. There's definitely not another place in the US that across multiple metrics that matches the DC-Baltimore region's population mass across the same land after NYC, LA, Chicago regions. DC-Baltimore is actually slightly more dense than Chicagoland as well.
I think you guys get too caught up, much like our Baltimore friend here always commenting on "DC". The point of comparing any of this stuff here does not revolve around Washington DC city or the beltway metro. The points being made are about the entire surrounding region. Just like in the Bay, Miami, Boston etc,. It's all about fairness with the numbers. I get it though because IMO it's the most unique and of it's kind metro in the US, there are only global comparisons to the Washington DC-Baltimore region. Nothing in this country and probably continent compare.
Last edited by the resident09; 07-23-2021 at 10:50 AM..
It's not dumb because it's an actual measurement of something. The metric doesn't match City vs City. . Just like MSA is another measurement of something, as is UA, Demographia UA, Urban Agglomeration etc.
How many Census' does it take for that to get through people's skulls...Do you know what a CSA stands for?
"Combined statistical area (CSA) is a United States Office of Management and Budget (OMB) term for a combination of adjacent metropolitan (MSA) and micropolitan statistical areas (µSA) across the 50 US states and the territory of Puerto Rico that can demonstrate economic or social linkage.The OMB defines a CSA as consisting of various combinations of adjacent metropolitan and micropolitan areas with economic ties measured by commuting patterns. These areas that combine retain their own designations as metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas within the larger combined statistical area."
But it largely measures something useless. The connection between Kingston RI and Newburyport MA is very very tenuous. Laconia and Mashpee too.
It measure some general regional population. In no way is it a reflection of the size of any city within its boundaries.
There is a reason why people call the Bay Area the Bay Area and not Greater SF. Because it’s *not* greater SF
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
But it largely measures something useless. The connection between Kingston RI and Newburyport MA is very very tenuous. Laconia and Mashpee too.
It measure some general regional population. In no way is it a reflection of the size of any city within its boundaries.
There is a reason why people call the Bay Area the Bay Area and not Greater SF. Because it’s *not* greater SF
Again based on the CSA Census definition, what is useless about describing a regional set of economic ties or commuting patterns etc.? It's measuring how far you get before you're within the reach of another CSA, not MSA. As stated earlier every single CSA in the nation over reaches, but many MSA's do the same. Madison County, Virginia population 13k has absolutely nothing to do with Washington D.C., Northern Virginia, or Maryland, but is a part of it's MSA. More people from Anne Arundel County, MD commute into the DC MSA daily, than from 75 miles away in Central Virginia. So by the same logic MSA's are useless...
Allow me to apologize. I violated one of my own personal tenants in using hyperbolic language regarding the post you are responding to. What you were responding was outside of the the point I was even trying to make. That’s what I get for being in a hurry and not proof reading.
I did not intend to diminish the size of DC, or Baltimore. Pre-Covid I flew into Reagan every week for work and am no stranger to the area. When getting into feels like territory pretty much any metro 5miillion or above start to have the same “feels like” characteristics. New York and LA withstanding(IMO).
Where I’d say nuance gets blurry is when we start talking about the agglomerations like DC and Baltimore. Yes they together have a sizable urbanized population, but they are still decentralized into two distinct nodes. While suburban form may blend it still doesn’t feel the same as a Chicago or Toronto which do not really have competing nodes and the urbanized areas around them all feed into once centralized core. So for me it has a slightly more noticeable difference in feel, though to say they don’t feel like a 7million person UA “at all” was a mistake in message on my part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09
This is very very false IMO. How much time have you spent in the DC-Baltimore area actually?
Beyond the fact that the DC-Baltimore combined region overall is more populous than Toronto, and now Chicago (by CSA only I won't even go there).
Saying that the DC-Baltimore region doesn't feel extremely expansive and like one of the largest in the country is just off. You're talking a lot just about "DC", which is the issue here.
The only metric where DC-Baltimore are not combined into one are from US metrics that purposely break them up for political purposes using MSA and UA. All the other major population metrics combine the two metropolises and count them as one greater region with two poles.
Washington-United States of America- 8,550,000 CUA incl. Baltimore
Radius population 25 miles Washington DC Downtown
5,296,034
Radius population 50 miles Washington DC Downtown
8,116,607
Radius population 25 miles from downtown Baltimore
2,749,022
Radius population 50 miles from downtown Baltimore
7,998,744
The 25 sq mile radius population of just Washington D.C. is only 700,000 less than the 25 sq mile radius of Chicago which is 6,025,765. The urban expansiveness isn't built out as uniform or into one larger urban grid like Chicago, but the heavy population is there.
There are no metrics where when combined as one region the DC-Baltimore area have less than at least 7.5 million people. The city proper is 38 miles line to line, and their two beltways are 18 miles apart. There's definitely not another place in the US that across multiple metrics that matches the DC-Baltimore region's population mass across the same land after NYC, LA, Chicago regions. DC-Baltimore is actually slightly more dense than Chicagoland as well.
I think you guys get too caught up, much like our Baltimore friend here always commenting on "DC". The point of comparing any of this stuff here does not revolve around Washington DC city or the beltway metro. The points being made are about the entire surrounding region. Just like in the Bay, Miami, Boston etc,. It's all about fairness with the numbers. I get it though because IMO it's the most unique and of it's kind metro in the US, there are only global comparisons to the Washington DC-Baltimore region. Nothing in this country and probably continent compare.
Last edited by mjlo; 07-23-2021 at 11:31 AM..
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. Just like MSA is another measurement of something, as is UA, Demographia UA, Urban Agglomeration etc.
