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Neither. CSA's are generally too big and cover too wide of an area. Who in Toccoa GA says they live in "Atlanta"? Toccoa is 90 miles away. Toccoa is closer to Greenville than Atlanta and is in the Greenville media market...yet its in Atlanta's CSA?
Plus not every MSA is a CSA, which makes it feel inaccurate. How can you leave Tampa, Charleston, San Antonio, Austin, Honolulu, San Diego, etc out. How are these not CSA's to begin with?
That's also the problem with MSAs. Too many obvious cities are left out of the region they should be in. Sarasota and Lakeland should be with Tampa, Raleigh and Durham should be together, Greenville and Spartanburg should be together, Ann Arbor should be with the Detroit, Boulder should be with Denver, Daphne should be with Mobile, honestly the Bay Area should be one thing, Macon and Warner Robins should be together, etc. Atlanta and DFW seem excessively massive. Its too much of an emphasis on commuting, which still doesn't feel completely accurate.
IMO the criteria should be more of a mix of TV markets and urban area, with commuting patterns and general culture. Lakeland may have enough jobs to be considered its own MSA, but its in Tampa's media market and is culturally apart of Tampa. Downtown Lakeland is 6 miles from the county line. Raleigh and Durham are so intertwined you can't magically tell where Raleigh ends and Durham begins. The Triangle is the Triangle. Same with Greenville and Spartanburg. Hell they even share a city (Greer). UM students never go to Detroit and UC students to Denver?
I think something that’s overlooked is other than a couple cities Boston, San Francisco, Cleveland, DC, UA, MSA and CSA are not all that far off from each other.
It’s like UA+15%=MSA+10%=CSA.
The ratio between say Buffalo and Cincinnati’s CSA MSA And UA are very similar.
Neither. CSA's are generally too big and cover too wide of an area. Who in Toccoa GA says they live in "Atlanta"? Toccoa is 90 miles away. Toccoa is closer to Greenville than Atlanta and is in the Greenville media market...yet its in Atlanta's CSA?
Plus not every MSA is a CSA, which makes it feel inaccurate. How can you leave Tampa, Charleston, San Antonio, Austin, Honolulu, San Diego, etc out. How are these not CSA's to begin with?
That's also the problem with MSAs. Too many obvious cities are left out of the region they should be in. Sarasota and Lakeland should be with Tampa, Raleigh and Durham should be together, Greenville and Spartanburg should be together, Ann Arbor should be with the Detroit, Boulder should be with Denver, Daphne should be with Mobile, honestly the Bay Area should be one thing, Macon and Warner Robins should be together, etc. Atlanta and DFW seem excessively massive. Its too much of an emphasis on commuting, which still doesn't feel completely accurate.
IMO the criteria should be more of a mix of TV markets and urban area, with commuting patterns and general culture. Lakeland may have enough jobs to be considered its own MSA, but its in Tampa's media market and is culturally apart of Tampa. Downtown Lakeland is 6 miles from the county line. Raleigh and Durham are so intertwined you can't magically tell where Raleigh ends and Durham begins. The Triangle is the Triangle. Same with Greenville and Spartanburg. Hell they even share a city (Greer). UM students never go to Detroit and UC students to Denver?
Commuting patterns are already the primary determinant of what counties belong in an MSA or µSA (micropolitan statistical area) and of which MSAs and µSAs belong in a CSA — remember, the "C" stands for "combined" and is meant to measure intermetropolitan interconnectedness.
Yes, University of Colorado students head to Denver, and some metro Denverites work at the University of Colorado, which is why those two metros are part of one CSA along with Aurora. Ditto Ann Arbor and Detroit, both MSAs in the same CSA as well. But to simply make Boulder a satellite of Denver, or Ann Arbor one of Detroit, in a single MSA is also inaccurate, for the universities' presences make Ann Arbor and Boulder metropolitan centers in themselves, as the great majority of the people in their counties work there.
Similarly, where I come from, Leavenworth County, KS, was for many years not part of the Kansas City, MO-KS MSA, even though it was in the Kansas City media market, it bordered two metro area counties and you could take a Kansas City Area Transportation Authority bus from downtown Kansas City, KS, to downtown Leavenworth. The reason was: just about everyone in Leavenworth County worked at either Fort Leavenworth or Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary, and not enough people in the KC metro counties commuted into Leavenworth County to work at either (or at Wadsworth VA Hospital or Kansas State Penitentiary, both in Lansing, next door to Leavenworth). Had it not finally been added to the MSA after the 1990 Census, it might have been constituted as its own µSA, like Atchison County to its north.
And many students in the University of Kansas' medical and nursing schools split their time between Kansas City and Lawrence, which is about 10 miles further from KC than Boulder is from Denver, because their curricula requires them to take basic science courses at the main campus while doing their clinical work at the teaching hospital in KC. And I spent plenty of time at a high-school classmate's home in Lawrence as a kid. But the presence of KU in Lawrence made it an urban center in its own right, separate from Kansas City even if Lawrenceites watched KC rather than Topeka TV stations (and Lawrence is closer to Topeka than to KC by about 15 miles). However, KC's exurbs and Lawrence's were growing towards each other, and the commuting levels got to the point where the Lawrence MSA became part of the KC CSA last decade.
And media markets have their issues as determinants of metropolitan influence. I'll wager hardly anyone in Nodaway County, MO, commutes to work in one of the KC MSA counties — they're more likely to work in the St. Joseph, MO, MSA and DMA (media market) if they leave it — yet this county next to the Iowa state line is part of the Kansas City DMA, which almost envelops St. Joseph's DMA.
I know you said "combinations," but I'd say that with a few exceptions (like Mercer County, NJ), commuting patterns are probably stronger indicators of economic connectedness (which is what the MSA and CSA definitions are supposed to be based on) than media influence is. And the current commuting levels for inclusion in MSAs and CSAs seem to capture the relationships pretty accurately.
I think something that’s overlooked is other than a couple cities Boston, San Francisco, Cleveland, DC, UA, MSA and CSA are not all that far off from each other.
It’s like UA+15%=MSA+10%=CSA.
The ratio between say Buffalo and Cincinnati’s CSA MSA And UA are very similar.
Actually a lot of CSA’s are less than 10% larger than MSA’s. Chicago, Dallas, St Louis, Houston, Phoenix are all well below 10%.
Actually a lot of CSA’s are less than 10% larger than MSA’s. Chicago, Dallas, St Louis, Houston, Phoenix are all well below 10%.
That's the major reason why CSA is the most problematic measure. For a lot of places it adds tons of land but not a lot of people. But for a few it almost doubles the MSA population.
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Originally Posted by atadytic19
That's the major reason why CSA is the most problematic measure. For a lot of places it adds tons of land but not a lot of people. But for a few it almost doubles the MSA population.
It's just varies way too widely.
There are parts of the country where you have dual-metros or multi-nodal metros in one overall area, which is why the CSA's typically on the coasts, are so much different than the centrally located metros with nothing but uninhabited land or close by cities to drastically add to the population. It's why SF/SJ, WDC-Balt, Boston Providence, will never directly compare to a Chicago or Houston with nothing but land surrounding their immediate metro on its outskirts, and no other major cities within 50 miles of their downtown. They are literally apples and oranges by comparison.
There are parts of the country where you have dual-metros or multi-nodal metros in one overall area, which is why the CSA's typically on the coasts, are so much different than the centrally located metros with nothing but uninhabited land or close by cities to drastically add to the population. It's why SF/SJ, WDC-Balt, Boston Providence, will never directly compare to a Chicago or Houston with nothing but land surrounding their immediate metro on its outskirts, and no other major cities within 50 miles of their downtown. They are literally apples and oranges by comparison.
But I think it’s fair to say the Boston CSA is more like SE New England than “Boston”, even in common parlance the Cleveland CSA is called NE Ohio. Because there is a recognition that Canton or Akron isn’t Cleveland.
If you living in Boston/Cambridge/Revere or whatever you absolutely wouldn’t say you are in the center of region the size of Chicago.
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