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An interesting fact about Houston and Dallas, that people conveniently overlook, is that their Hispanic populations used to much smaller than they currently are. In fact, it's only over the past few decades that the Hispanic population in these cities outnumbered the black population. Several people will blindly claim that the entirety of Texas has always been steeped in Mexican American influence, but, the fact of the matter is that African Americans have much deeper roots in the regions east of I-35, which is where more than half of the state's population lives anyway. Sure, Hispanic culture is very widespread and influential today, but people like to pretend that it has always been that way, and it simply isn't the case. Hell, there's a reason Tex-Mex in Houston, Dallas, and East Texas isn't even as good as what you'll get in San Antonio or South Texas.
Like I said before, it's not about the fact that Texas is a southern state, it's about some Texans not wanting to be considered a southern state, so they'll split any hairs they need to in order to "prove" it isn't. They think it's necessary to establish ourselves as a unique place. I'm wise enough to know that it isn't necessary.
Well, Texas is a unique place. Texas is still home to El Paso, Laredo, Del Rio, Amarillo, etc. While I consider Texas to be a Southern state, it still truly is a unique state. Texas really is South-By-Southwest. Why should it belong to one region? It's both Southern and Southwestern.
An interesting fact about Houston and Dallas, that people conveniently overlook, is that their Hispanic populations used to much smaller than they currently are. In fact, it's only over the past few decades that the Hispanic population in these cities outnumbered the black population.
Hispanics did not outnumber Blacks in Harris County until the 1990 Census. They didn't outnumber Blacks in Dallas County until the 2000 Census.
I also don't see why Mexicans can't be southerners.
But that's kind of the point, Texas at one point was very definitely a southern state, of course the state seceded, growing cotton was the source of income for the state, but over the years and decades things have changed, at one time Maryland was very definitely a southern state but very few people think of them that way now, it has changed over time.
Cotton may no longer be the Lone Star state's main source of income (I think that's true for the other southern states too), but it leads the nation in cotton production by a long shot.
Texas produces nearly a third of all cotton in the United States. It produces more cotton than the Carolinas, Alabama, Georgia, Virginia, Arkansas and Florida combined.
This isn't true at all from my experience. Like you, I'm foreign born and for where it matters started off foreign raised in a foreign country. Up till I graduated high school, was still foreign raised but with more standard American customs. English and Hindi were the second language, Hinglish and Singlish were the first. Majority of my childhood in the United States was spent shedding the foreign accents, for a standard English one (no regional affiliation, just flat out standard English) like most people around me who were from another country.
However I've seen people of all colors that live in Greater Houston, fully embrace the Texas culture, at times, en masse, Asians being zero exception. Although I never participated in it but I've seen it all the time. Go to an area like Katy, Texas and tell me you haven't ever seen Texan-Asians before. Yes, yes, the Cowboy boots and hats et all. Same thing with Latin Americans.
In fact it's a trend set by all powerful cities in each region. When immigrants move to Detroit, most wont ever become American (like myself) but some do adhere to Midwestern culture (and that becomes noticeable). Same can be said of Chicago and the traditional values and customs of Midwestern culture. Same can be said of the Bay Area of Greater Los Angeles in the West (except western culture), same can be said of immigrants into New York (except Northeastern culture). I'm starting to notice all great cities have at least 50% of their culture deeply engrained in their regional roots and the rest of the city might as well be a global (as well as national) migrant hub culturally.
In Washington DC, the problem is that it's not true Northeastern. We will never have the delicacy of the true Northeast when it comes to Kosher, Delis, Italian-American New York style pizza, Irish pub concept, so on. At the same time, the place isn't Southern either to where it could ever have Cajun, Soul, Creole style cooking either.
It's actually Miami that I'm more curious about. I've spent time there, a good straight month the second of the two times I've been. Quite love the place, although, I think it's the only place in the country where immigrants come but they don't add to the regional/local culture that exists. They transform the culture more like back home. I mean immigrants in every city will bring their culture but it seems like all of the ones in Miami are more concerned with how things are back home culturally than where they live in the present. I don't think Miami is a culturally Southern city honestly.
One more thing, Houston is the second largest, not third, second largest Mexican population in the country after Los Angeles.
All good points, but I see Texan culture differently than southern culture. Its a mix of southern, western, and plains, but decidedly independent.
Theres no perfect answer in this poll, a case can be made either way. The same watering down of the south happens in South Florida, where its become a mix of American and Carribbean culture.
I think the 3rd ranking I gave Houston was for Hispanic population, not Mexican, which I believe New York would jump in front of them.
Well, Texas is a unique place. Texas is still home to El Paso, Laredo, Del Rio, Amarillo, etc. While I consider Texas to be a Southern state, it still truly is a unique state. Texas really is South-By-Southwest. Why should it belong to one region? It's both Southern and Southwestern.
Thats why this thread has rambled on, because of the blending of east/west and north/south. It happens in Florida too, from north to south, where Miami is kind of its own entity and jumping off point for Latin America.
All good points, but I see Texan culture differently than southern culture. Its a mix of southern, western, and plains, but decidedly independent.
Theres no perfect answer in this poll, a case can be made either way. The same watering down of the south happens in South Florida, where its become a mix of American and Carribbean culture.
I think the 3rd ranking I gave Houston was for Hispanic population, not Mexican, which I believe New York would jump in front of them.
In a University of North Carolina poll, 51 percent of Floridians self-identified as southerners. In the same poll, 68 percent of Texans did so.
=slo1318;34010388]Ive been in Texas 18 years, but did not grow up here. I only asked because I think if you are from the eastern portion of Texas it will skew your view that way.
Well, as it is, there is no view to "skew" in the sense it seems you possibly intend it. That is to say, that those from East Texas would be any different than those from eastern parts of the Deep South might -- for example -- be any different from answers given by residents of north vs. south Alabama or same in Louisiana...(see more below).
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Just as, if you are from Lubbock or El Paso, you may see things differently. Saying that, it makes a difference if its Dallas or Tyler or Texarkana...
Yes, I acknowledge (as mentioned earlier), that there is definitely a certain shading as one goes west to east. BUT...the said color-scheme -- what ever it might be -- as concerns Southern identity and history and culture -- goes from a gradual light to darker or vice-versa -- (depending on what the Southern characteristic actually is!)...to abruptly non-existent, north of Oklahoma, west of Texas, north of the Ohio River, etc.
Did you see the polling results which spanned 7 years? (Southern Focus Poll and Annals of American Geography survey?).
Yes, there was an expected "east/west" gradient in Texas...but the (somewhat) surprising thing that was borne out was that even in west Texas (yes, trans-pecos residents were an expected exception), a majority self-identified with the South, rather than West.
And really, why wouldn't it be so? I mean, west Texas was overwhelmingly settled by pioneers from the southeastern United States after the War. They may have adopted different ways of living and all, but did not abandon their attitudes and religious beliefs, and etc. etc, at all. Which is why it is still, arguably, the most concentrated area of cotton farming and dominance of the Southern Baptist Church in the South at large...and was from the beginning...
And? You mention Lubbock (where are you from originally by the way? *genuinely curious*) as where you have lived over the past 18 years? Then I am sure you know Lubbock County itself was named after Confederate general Francis Lubbock (brother of staunch secessionist governor -- and un-reconstructed to the end! -- Thomas Lubbock!).
And in west Texas? (again, I realize FAR west Texas is an exception for sure), but there is Scurry, Stonewall, Ochiltree, etc, and etc...that were not named by accident...!
=TexasTwoFace;34018655]But that's kind of the point, Texas at one point was very definitely a southern state, of course the state seceded, growing cotton was the source of income for the state
And it still is, it just is not given the attention that cattle and oil get! But it is still "King" in Texas so far as an ag product goes...and is, in fact, the Official State Fiber! For good reason!
but over the years and decades things have changed, at one time Maryland was very definitely a southern state but very few people think of them that way now, it has changed over time. Texas has many influences from the south, many things that are now considered Texan have origins in the south, but many others from the great plains culture and the southwest, like all the distinct cultures around the country it is a hodgepodge of the cultures of the people who moved here, the cattle boom brought new influences, the oil boom brought new influences, the german settlements brought new influences, influences that other southern states never got in such numbers.
Just to mention again, there is a huge difference in Texas and Maryland. Not the least of that, most Texans clearly identify with the South, whereas most Marylanders don't. Which is fine...I am not making a value-judgment, just a fact back up by public opinion polls of residents. Now is Maryland "more Southern" than New Jersey or Massachusetts. Of course it is. But to compare it with Texas history and all things involved is just apples and oranges...
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Maybe the Mexican influence is more widespread now than it was in the past but that still counts, it doesn't matter what Texas was, the new influences, the new transplants count, they are forming our culture of today, so maybe we are losing are southern roots but we are gaining something too.
Yes, your arguments are very well articulated...and even on some levels, have an colorful appeal...but anyway...
So what might we be gaining? Maybe it IS a good thing (only history can verify that one)...but just because we are "gaining" something, doesn't make it a good thing to gain...ala' that change is always a good thing. Sometimes history has a way of proving it isn't at all.
One has to remember too, that the "transplants" you speak of do not necessarily feel any connection to the real roots and history and culture and identity at all when it comes to the state. And equally, may leave the state in a heartbeat if immigration policies or job-opportunities, etc, suddenly shift to their advantage/disadvantage (whichever is the one that works best)...
On the other hand? Even though the relationship has not always been hunky-dory, it was -- and I will say it until hades turns to ice -- that the real shaping of Texas was that of white and blacks whose roots trace to the southeastern United States...something totally unlike the true Western States.
Bluntly...and I know personal experience is not empirical evidence...but I can still say it counts for something...especially when it is so consistent and almost seems to be suppressed a bit. That is to say, , many of the same (transplants, immigrants) will quite frankly say that they are here only for the job...and want to get the hell out as soon as soon as they can do it. Texas means nothing more than a place where they can live so long as it suits them to do so...otherwise, it is just a way-station or metaphorical motel for now...
So what is being gained at all, as you put it?
With all the above written, let me make very clear that -- IMHO -- you wrote a very good post and I enjoyed reading it...even thought I disagree with lots of it!
On a related tangent -- as it seems trends are going -- at what point will Georgia no longer be considered a "true Southern state"?
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