More Southern State: Texas or Florida (best, better, map, rates)

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by polo89

Not like NM? Seems pretty similar to the rest of the Southwestern US. Now lets see Miami's religious breakdown. I think the comparison is accurate, as both states are regarded as the "least Southern" of both respective states.

No, it's not like New Mexico because New Mexico doesn't have a non-Hispanic White population that's majority Southern Baptist.

What you're doing is cherrypicking a small part of the state that's similar to another state and then making the argument that the states as a whole are similar. That's like plucking out Austin and then saying that Texas has a whole lot in common with Washington as a whole. Or plucking out Atlanta proper and saying that Georgia has a whole lot in common with Maryland as a whole.

[BajanYankee]

The entire panhandle of Texas plus Midland has 1,225,393 people. That's fewer people than Houston's city limits. Let's throw in another million for all of the people who fall outside of the southern dialect boundary on Labov's map.

http://laits.utexas.edu/texas_english/LAB2006map.jpg

You're talking at best about 8% of the population that lives outside of the boundaries on that map.

[TexasTwoFace]

Yeah, but for some reason you can't count Houston as the south because it went blue.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by TexasTwoFace

Yeah, but for some reason you can't count Houston as the south because it went blue.

That's not what I said. I'll post this one last time. I'll even explain slooooowly like and chopped and screwed album.

Ranking states by the liberalism/conservatism of their voters « Statistical Modeling, Causal Inference, and Social Science Statistical Modeling, Causal Inference, and Social Science

See the chart? You see it? See where Texas is? It's right there by South Carolina. Now look down and to the left. See where Florida is? See it? It's down there by Pennsylvania. A little more conservative (as one would expect). But Pennsylvania is most similar to it. Blue and Red don't matter. When Texas goes Red, it's because the voters there come down on issues the same way most voters in South Carolina come down on the same issues.

Actually, I can't wait for the "More Southern: South Carolina or Texas" thread where South Carolinians point to the Barbadian influence on the state for a reason why it's less southern. Pretty soon, Mississippi will be the only state left in the South after everyone else refuses to claim it.

[polo89]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

This is a ridiculous argument. The reason I used Lubbock is because it's more than 150 miles west of Dallas. It's not like the southern characteristics found in East Texas don't extend beyond I-35. They can be found in the majority of the state.

I mean, you seem like the type of person who would argue that New York State is more like Ohio than New Jersey because Buffalo has characteristics of a Midwestern city (despite the fact that nearly 40% of the population lives in the Five Boroughs alone). It's essentially the same thing with Texas. Why would anyone would put more weight on the 15% of the state that's outside of the Bible Belt/southern dialect boundary? You are putting a huge amount of weight on an area of the state where few people live (comparatively).

In contrast, 70.2% of Florida's population (13,781,531) lives from the Orlando MSA to the Florida Keys. So you're talking about a state whose population is not residing predominantly in counties gripped by conservative, Republican ideology and southern dialect/culture. Polls show this. Linguistics maps show this. And your response is to keep ramming away at the small slices of Texas that aren't characteristically southern. Give me a break already.

So again, I'll make it reaaaal simple for you. LOL.

-Florida's closest ideological peer is Pennsylvania. Texas' is South Carolina.

-The majority of the population of Florida is not within the Southern American English boundary as established by linguistic experts. Nearly all of Texas is.

-Fewer Floridians self-identify with the South.

-Florida has far fewer Evangelical "Born Again" Christians. Texas has one of the highest percentages and the highest absolute number of Evangelicals.

So there you have it.

- The millions of practicing Catholics in Texas, can be found within the Texas Triangle of Houston, Dallas, San Antonio. Hell, you can find Cathedrals all over INNER-CITY San Antonio. When I mention Practicing Cathloics, I'm not just talking about far out fringe towns in the state that make up no more than .2% of the population, I'm talking cities like El Paso(which is a fringe city) to cities like Houston(the largest city). The same way you can use Lubbock as an example of a city well West of I-35, to showcase that the Southern Baptist population extends well into the Western region of Texas, I could just point out how Catholic Houston is. Houston's firmly in East Texas, and is regarded as the most culturaly Southern, big city in Texas. Yet Catholics make up 18% of metro Houston's population:

Religion Houston, TX United States
Percent Religious 58.40% 48.78%
Catholic 18.44% 19.43%
LDS 1.10% 2.03%
Baptist 16.29% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.95% 0.63%
Pentecostal 1.53% 1.87%
Lutheran 1.07% 2.33%
Methodist 4.68% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.05% 1.63%
Other Christian 9.25% 5.51%
Jewish 0.53% 0.73%
Eastern 0.63% 0.53%
Islam 2.86% 0.84%

SO while metro Houston does have a large Southern Baptist population(nobody really denied this) the Catholic population is actually 2% larger than the Baptist population. Now how many Southern cities have this same religious demographic make-up? Lets compare:

Religion Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA United States
Percent Religious 49.72% 48.78%
Catholic 7.72% 19.43%
LDS 0.76% 2.03%
Baptist 17.46% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.80% 0.63%
Pentecostal 2.61% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.53% 2.33%
Methodist 7.89% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.82% 1.63%
Other Christian 8.12% 5.51%
Jewish 0.58% 0.73%
Eastern 0.67% 0.53%
Islam 0.77%


Religion Jacksonville, FL United States
Percent Religious 55.59% 48.78%
Catholic 9.44% 19.43%
LDS 1.08% 2.03%
Baptist 20.90% 9.30%
Episcopalian 1.16% 0.63%
Pentecostal 2.34% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.69% 2.33%
Methodist 5.72% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.64% 1.63%
Other Christian 10.66% 5.51%
Jewish 0.59% 0.73%
Eastern 0.70% 0.53%
Islam 0.67% 0.84%


Religion Birmingham-Hoover, AL United States
Percent Religious 70.99% 48.78%
Catholic 5.89% 19.43%
LDS 0.65% 2.03%
Baptist 39.06% 9.30%
Episcopalian 1.38% 0.63%
Pentecostal 4.87% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.30% 2.33%
Methodist 7.84% 3.93%
Presbyterian 2.18% 1.63%
Other Christian 8.06% 5.51%
Jewish 0.37% 0.73%
Eastern 0.07% 0.53%
Islam 0.32% 0.84%


Religion Memphis, TN United States
Percent Religious 58.85% 48.78%
Catholic 5.37% 19.43%
LDS 0.62% 2.03%
Baptist 30.81% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.63% 0.63%
Pentecostal 4.76% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.38% 2.33%
Methodist 6.25% 3.93%
Presbyterian 2.43% 1.63%
Other Christian 6.11% 5.51%
Jewish 0.65% 0.73%
Eastern 0.51% 0.53%
Islam 0.34% 0.84%


Religion Nashville Davidson Murfreesboro, TN United States
Percent Religious 50.69% 48.78%
Catholic 4.59% 19.43%
LDS 0.78% 2.03%
Baptist 25.26% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.84% 0.63%
Pentecostal 2.20% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.40% 2.33%
Methodist 6.12% 3.93%
Presbyterian 2.15% 1.63%
Other Christian 7.51% 5.51%
Jewish 0.18% 0.73%
Eastern 0.30% 0.53%
Islam 0.38%


Religion Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC United States
Percent Religious 51.76% 48.78%
Catholic 6.40% 19.43%
LDS 0.78% 2.03%
Baptist 17.27% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.83% 0.63%
Pentecostal 3.26% 1.87%
Lutheran 1.35% 2.33%
Methodist 8.65% 3.93%
Presbyterian 4.55% 1.63%
Other Christian 7.96% 5.51%
Jewish 0.31% 0.73%
Eastern 0.18% 0.53%
Islam 0.22%


Religion Richmond, VA United States
Percent Religious 50.11% 48.78%
Catholic 6.17% 19.43%
LDS 0.96% 2.03%
Baptist 19.93% 9.30%
Episcopalian 2.39% 0.63%
Pentecostal 1.84% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.60% 2.33%
Methodist 6.11% 3.93%
Presbyterian 2.15% 1.63%
Other Christian 6.48% 5.51%
Jewish 0.37% 0.73%
Eastern 0.32% 0.53%
Islam 2.79% 0.84%

Tampa, FL United States
Percent Religious 39.77% 48.78%
Catholic 10.86% 19.43%
LDS 0.74% 2.03%
Baptist 10.28% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.55% 0.63%
Pentecostal 2.31% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.85% 2.33%
Methodist 3.31% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.02% 1.63%
Other Christian 6.51% 5.51%
Jewish 0.56% 0.73%
Eastern 1.09% 0.53%
Islam 1.71% 0.84%

Religion Orlando, FL United States
Percent Religious 42.08% 48.78%
Catholic 13.06% 19.43%
LDS 0.96% 2.03%
Baptist 7.55% 9.30%
Episcopalian 0.73% 0.63%
Pentecostal 3.96% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.71% 2.33%
Methodist 3.01% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.50% 1.63%
Other Christian 8.03% 5.51%
Jewish 0.37% 0.73%
Eastern 1.10% 0.53%
Islam 1.10% 0.84%




For the hell of it, Washington DC:

Religion Washington, DC United States
Percent Religious 55.23% 48.78%
Catholic 14.96% 19.43%
LDS 0.09% 2.03%
Baptist 17.34% 9.30%
Episcopalian 3.08% 0.63%
Pentecostal 1.02% 1.87%
Lutheran 0.69% 2.33%
Methodist 3.64% 3.93%
Presbyterian 1.74% 1.63%
Other Christian 7.43% 5.51%
Jewish 2.94% 0.73%
Eastern 1.64% 0.53%
Islam 0.67% 0.84%

^^^Of the Florida cities, only Orlando had a clearly higher Catholic population than it's Baptist population. Tampa's Catholic and Baptist percentages were even at 10%. Jacksonville was 20% Baptist, 9% Catholic.


-In regards to linguistics The Calo Linguistic Zone, includes every major city in Texas. Because, well, every major city in Texas is at least 30% Hispanic.

-Ideologically, the White-Southern population in Texas, is gonna have the same core belief system as the rest of the South. Never denied that. But most NATIVE White Floridians share the same core belief system(transplants not with standing).

[BajanYankee]

Louisiana has a very high percentage of Catholics (26.6%...right up there with Pennsylvania!). In fact, many African Americans in the state are Roman Catholics, and the state has the largest Black Catholic population in the United States.

Does that make Louisiana less southern?

Of course not. It's just a "twist" on its southerness. It's like adding cayenne pepper to spaghetti; it doesn't change the fact that it's still spaghetti. Louisiana has its own idiosyncrancies, as does Texas, but they're still southern states that are dominated by southern culture, accents, dialect, customs, and politics. Southern culture isn't as dominant in Florida, which means it's less southern.

[TexasReb]

=BajanYankee;34052035] No, it's not like New Mexico because New Mexico doesn't have a non-Hispanic White population that's majority Southern Baptist.

What you're doing is cherrypicking a small part of the state that's similar to another state and then making the argument that the states as a whole are similar. That's like plucking out Austin and then saying that Texas has a whole lot in common with Washington as a whole. Or plucking out Atlanta proper and saying that Georgia has a whole lot in common with Maryland as a whole.

This (bolded) is a very important point, and a definitely distinguishing one. That is, the large Catholic population of Texas is very much a recent phenomenon, and almost exclusively confined to the Hispanic population in south Texas and/or newly arrived northern transplants. This is almost completely different from that of the interior SW states in terms of history, membership, and development.

[Spade]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

The entire panhandle of Texas plus Midland has 1,225,393 people. That's fewer people than Houston's city limits. Let's throw in another million for all of the people who fall outside of the southern dialect boundary on Labov's map.

http://laits.utexas.edu/texas_english/LAB2006map.jpg

You're talking at best about 8% of the population that lives outside of the boundaries on that map.

This is why I don't take these maps seriously. Because there are DOZENS of them to prove a point.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...dialectsus.gif

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/.../12/diausa.gif

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atla...ap/NatMap1.GIF

Nobody can convince me otherwise that people not only in the Panhandle of Florida doesn't have Southern accents, but Central and South Florida as well. Excluding Tallahassee and Gainesville like some of the maps posted earlier is hilarious to me. If I showed my cousins down in Florida these maps, they would think these people do not know what they're talking about.

Hell, going against my better judgement relying on surveys, you will see here that Florida isn't much different from Texas OR other Southern states in most of the words.

Dialect Survey Results: FLORIDA

Dialect Survey Results: TEXAS

[sweat209]

Originally Posted by TexasTwoFace

I'd say the southern/soul/comfort food restaurants would need to outnumber the Tex-Mex restaurants. The SEC football talk would need to surpass that of the NFL talk. Pork would need to be the preferred meat over beef. And people would talk with a southern drawl instead of the Texas twang. Among others.

So you are saying people in Texas don't have drawl? That is really funny because not all people in Texas talk fast and there are many people in Georgia and Flordia who talk fast.The TV show Here Comes Honey Boo Boo talk very fast and they are true southern people you can get.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

This (bolded) is a very important point, and a definitely distinguishing one. That is, the large Catholic population of Texas is very much a recent phenomenon, and almost exclusively confined to the Hispanic population in south Texas and/or newly arrived northern transplants. This is almost completely different from that of the interior SW states in terms of history, membership, and development.

Yes, and nearly all of NM (with the exception of a small sliver along the TX/NM border) falls within the American West dialect boundary. Nearly all of Texas falls within the Southern American English boundary. So when the majority of a state falls within the southern dialect boundary, Southern Baptists and Evangelicals make up a huge percentage of the state's population, the state expresses a collective political ideology akin to South Carolina's, and the state is a member of the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governor's Association, what else could it be other than "southern?"