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I never said rail is the "end all and be all" of what makes good transportation as buses are a contributing factor but that doesn't change the fact that when it comes to having a great transit city by world standards, rail is a huge factor. Fundamentally rail service is superior than buses when it comes to mass transit. Rail service like subways, move larger amounts of people more efficiently than buses do.
Sure but the point is you can still have relatively good PT without any or much rail as in the case of Seattle.
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No I would not. San Diego underperforms for a city of it's size. After all, it is the 8th largest city in the country.
But it was way more rail than Seattle and has less people in the metro. So according to your reasoning that you have ben using it should have a better mass transit system. SD's light rail systems are about 4x larger than Seattle's and it has less people. So why do you think it's public transit is as good?
Phoenix city population has almost a million more people than Seattle. The same can be said for its metro area as well. Also the Phoenix area has growing at a much faster rate.
Oh, whoops. I looked at old census numbers by mistake.
But it was way more rail than Seattle and has less people in the metro. So according to your reasoning that you have ben using it should have a better mass transit system. SD's light rail systems are about 4x larger than Seattle's and it has less people. So why do you think it's public transit is as good?
One reason, but the only reason, is jobs are much more centralized in Seattle. Its downtown is much larger, and then Bellevue is a secondary downtown, U-District adds more riders. San Diego jobs are more decentralized making transit less practical.
One reason, but the only reason, is jobs are much more centralized in Seattle. Its downtown is much larger, and then Bellevue is a secondary downtown, U-District adds more riders. San Diego jobs are more decentralized making transit less practical.
I'm well aware of that and am just pointing out that having more rail doesn't necessarily mean having a better PT system like gwphilly seems to believe.
Sure but the point is you can still have relatively good PT without any or much rail as in the case of Seattle.
Yes, Seattle has good transportation when compared to cities like San Diego and Phoenix. However, when Seattle is match-up against the top-tier transit cities like Philadelphia, Chicago, or Washington DC, it loses badly.
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But it was way more rail than Seattle and has less people in the metro. So according to your reasoning that you have ben using it should have a better mass transit system. SD's light rail systems are about 4x larger than Seattle's and it has less people. So why do you think it's public transit is as good?
Seattle has better bus-rapid transit and having a light rail subway system gives it an edge over San Diego's mass transit.
Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 05-08-2014 at 08:22 PM..
Unless your city has bus rapid transit that rivals Brazilian cities like Sao Paulo and Rio De Janeiro then your not really going to see a huge difference between major cities in the US when it comes to bus service. Los Angeles may be an exception since it has arguably the best bus-rapid transit system in the country. You keep on making excuses for Houston. We all know Houston has a lot great things going for it but good transportation isn't one of them. It's the largest city/metro area with the worst mass transit.
I'm not trying to make excuses for Houston. I'm just saying that Houston doesn't need rail to have great public transit.
You mention bus rapid transit and I think that is the exact direction Houston should and is moving towards. Forget rail for a city like Houston. Expand bus rapid transit and also make the very successful Park and Ride even more efficient and I think Houston will be just fine.
As for being the worst mass transit metro I have to disagree. 285,000 daily riders doesn't sound like a failure to me. Especially in a city that looks down on public transportation. The majority of Houston uses their car to get around but there is a big portion of the population who can't afford a car and are able to get around daily using public transportation.
No excuses. Houston needs to do better with mass transit. Rail is not the solution. Houston is definitely not the worst city for mass transit. It's not great, it's not good, and it's also not the worst.
The thing about a bus system is that it's subject to traffic. With rail you can generally bypass traffic. so yes having a rail is a factor, whether people want to admit it or not. I never thought too much about it, but when I used Seattle mostly bus based transit I found myself stuck on 405 way too often
That's why we have HOV lanes. So that buses don't get stuck on freeway traffic. We also have dedicated bus lanes Downtown during peak hours. I've also noticed those dedicated lanes in Midtown.
As for being the worst mass transit metro I have to disagree. 285,000 daily riders doesn't sound like a failure to me. Especially in a city that looks down on public transportation. The majority of Houston uses their car to get around but there is a big portion of the population who can't afford a car and are able to get around daily using public transportation.
285,000 daily riders is low per capita. Honolulu's bus system has 239,000 daily riders with a fraction of the population. Yes, Honolulu probably has the best transit system in the US for a metro under 1 million.
I'm well aware of that and am just pointing out that having more rail doesn't necessarily mean having a better PT system like gwphilly seems to believe.
I know, just answering the question you put out. And adding information for those who don't realize.
285,000 daily riders is low per capita. Honolulu's bus system has 239,000 daily riders with a fraction of the population. Yes, Honolulu probably has the best transit system in the US for a metro under 1 million.
But you have to look at the way Houston is built. It's huuuuuuuge and expecting people to use public transportation to get around a city as expansive as Houston is really is ridiculous. To have 285,000 people using public transportation is amazing for a city like Houston. Houston isn't dense at all and building a mass transit system comparable to the top cities like NYC, Chicago, Philly, and D.C. would not make it any easier for Houstonians to get around. Most people living in the city have a commute to work less than 30 minutes. Outside the inner loop the commute may be 30-45 minutes. Outside Beltway 8 it's like an hour. In our burbs it's about an hour and 15 minutes and possibly pushing an hour and a half depending on which burb. Most people are willing to live with that to avoid public transportation. The mindset here is just different and building an efficient subway or light rail system matching that of Philly or some other northeast city wouldn't raise that 285,000 to 1,000,000 daily riders. Of course it would increase but not to the level that it would be worth it.
That's why rapid bus transit, more dedicated bus lanes, and better Park and Rides will do more for a city like Houston rather than Houston worrying about building rail. Improving our bus system to efficiently improve the mobility of Houston could possibly raise that 285,000 daily riders to a significant increase expected of a city like ours.
We will never be Philly, NYC, or Chicago. But we can be highly efficient at moving people around but just in different ways.
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