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And I think y'all misconstrued that I-10 comment. It didn't sound to me like he was saying that the Deep South only consisted of the immediate area that the interstate passes through. It sounded to me like he was saying that as long as you're on I-10 you can be sure you're in the Deep South (as long as you're actually in the south, obviously)
So can I ask what cultural differences did you observe between those cities and Houston neighborhoods like Acres Homes, Settegast, Sunnyside, etc or even towns like Cleveland or Liberty?
Those are all black neighborhoods.
Why is it that whenever someone want to prove how Southern a place is, they always point to black areas of any given city?
So can I ask what cultural differences did you observe between those cities and Houston neighborhoods like Acres Homes, Settegast, Sunnyside, etc or even towns like Cleveland or Liberty?
Since Cleveland and Liberty aren't even part of Houston or it's suburbs, I don't see any need to make any distinction there.
As for those neighborhoods, Acres Homes is kind of anomolous to most of Houston. That's a very unique neighborhood that doesn't share much in common with the rest of the city. It's pretty much a rural area that the city grew around. Sunnyside just feels and looks like a typical Southern working class suburb. I don't really see much about it that makes it "deep" South, as opposed to just Southern. I'm not even familiar with Settegast, so I have no comment there.
You can find a neighborhood in any major Texas city that is going to look and feel much more Southern than the rest of the city. However, I'm talking about the overall vibe of Houston, not just certain isolated neighborhoods. The vast majority of Greater Houston just doesn't feel like the deep South to me, the same way the vast majority of cities like Little Rock, Mobile, Memphis, Jackson, etc do. Sorry.
Houston is geographically very close the area where the deep South begins. There's no doubt about that. However, it really isn't within, or surrounded by the deep South. Perhaps 50 or 60 years ago Houston could have qualified as the "deep South", but today? Not so much. It is still a Southern city though. I'm not arguing that at all. IMO, the actual deep South begins a bit East and Northeast of Houston.
The deep South has a Western limit, just as much as it has a Northern limit (and a Southern limit, if we take Florida into account).
And I think y'all misconstrued that I-10 comment. It didn't sound to me like he was saying that the Deep South only consisted of the immediate area that the interstate passes through. It sounded to me like he was saying that as long as you're on I-10 you can be sure you're in the Deep South (as long as you're actually in the south, obviously)
To a point. Once you're West of Beaumont on I-10, you're really not in the deep South anymore.
Why is it that whenever someone want to prove how Southern a place is, they always point to black areas of any given city?
It's not because they're black. It's because these are the neighborhoods that retain most or all of the regional characteristics of any given area. It just so happens that most of these neighborhoods tend to be predominantly black.
If you'll notice I also mentioned small towns where whites are the majority.
Since Cleveland and Liberty aren't even part of Houston or it's suburbs, I don't see any need to make any distinction there.
No, but you did say that the Deep South ends west of the Sabine Pass. That would apply to those towns so that's why I brought them up.
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As for those neighborhoods, Acres Homes is kind of anomolous to most of Houston. That's a very unique neighborhood that doesn't share much in common with the rest of the city. It's pretty much a rural area that the city grew around. Sunnyside just feels and looks like a typical Southern working class suburb. I don't really see much about it that makes it "deep" South, as opposed to just Southern. I'm not even familiar with Settegast, so I have no comment there.
Understood but what I'm asking is what do these areas lack that keeps them from being Deep South.
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You can find a neighborhood in any major Texas city that is going to look and feel much more Southern than the rest of the city. However, I'm talking about the overall vibe of Houston, not just certain isolated neighborhoods. The vast majority of Greater Houston just doesn't feel like the deep South to me, the same way the vast majority of cities like Little Rock, Mobile, Memphis, Jackson, etc do. Sorry.
Houston is geographically very close the area where the deep South begins. There's no doubt about that. However, it really isn't within, or surrounded by the deep South. Perhaps 50 or 60 years ago Houston could have qualified as the "deep South", but today? Not so much. It is still a Southern city though. I'm not arguing that at all. IMO, the actual deep South begins a bit East and Northeast of Houston.
The deep South has a Western limit, just as much as it has a Northern limit (and a Southern limit, if we take Florida into account).
So what changed? In your previous post you claimed that it had nothing to do with transplants or the city's size, so what is it exactly?
If it is about how the city has changed due to its growth, I can understand that perspective completely. The same argument can be made for several cities.
No, but you did say that the Deep South ends west of the Sabine Pass. That would apply to those towns so that's why I brought them up.
OK, now you're getting nit-picky. To be more specific about my earlier point, what I meant was that the "edge" of what I consider the "deep" South begins on the coast just West of Sabine Pass, then follows a crooked line Northward from there, zig-zagging East to West, up to roughly I-30. Since there really isn't much inhabited land along the coast West of Sabine Pass until you get to Galveston Bay, that was what I was getting at... but something tells me you probably already knew that anyway.
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Originally Posted by mega man
Understood but what I'm asking is what do these areas lack that keeps them from being Deep South.
Many things. There's just too much diversity and various other cultures to make the Southern culture a stand-alone, dominant culture in Houston. Even neighborhoods like Sunnyside feel quite different to me from the general, overall vibe I experienced in those other deep South cities I mentioned earlier. The pace is much faster in Houston than it is in the deep South, for one thing... aside from maybe Atlanta.
Then, there's not only the presence of all the different international cultures, but interregional cultures as well. Even if you're in a neighborhood that's primarily Black, you're still never too far from a multitude of other cultures that in some way aren't traditionally Southern. Perhaps Acres Homes is the sole exception here, as it seems very insular compared to other Houston neighborhoods.
Even the architecture is different. In most Houston neighborhoods, you'll see plenty of Spanish tile roofs and Stucco siding mixed in with the typical Southern ranch-style single-family homes. Houston is a real mish-mash of different architectural styles, thanks to the lack of zoning.
To me, the "deep South" has a continuous blanket culture that dominates every part of it. Atlanta might be the exception to this, since like Houston and Dallas it is a real melting pot of not only international culture, but interregional as well. However, Atlanta is completely surrounded by the deep South in all directions. Houston isn't. Like I said earlier, if you go East or Northeast from Houston then it's not far until you're in the deep South. However, what lies to the West, Northwest, and the South isn't what I would call the deep South. Just... the South. Period. Or "Western South" to some people.
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Originally Posted by mega man
So what changed? In your previous post you claimed that it had nothing to do with transplants or the city's size, so what is it exactly?
Nothing changed. You must not have read what I said properly. I said Houston is still a Southern city, in spite of it's size, growth rate, and transplants/immigrants. Just not a DEEP South city.
We're making distinctions here between the South and the deep South. I never once said it wasn't Southern.
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Originally Posted by mega man
If it is about how the city has changed due to its growth, I can understand that perspective completely. The same argument can be made for several cities.
It's not completely about that though. I'm 50 years old. I grew up in Houston primarily in the 70's and early 80's. That is where my perspective is coming from. Whatever Houston was like prior to the late 60's, I have no perspective to work with. In my opinion, Houston wasn't even a deep South city 40 years ago. According to my parents, from the 1950's-forward, Houston began losing many of the traits that once made it feel "deep South". By the time I was going to school and getting out to explore the city beyond my neighborhood, it definitely didn't feel like it had much in common with places like Mobile, Memphis, Jackson, etc... aside from the heat and humidity.
There's a reason why I experienced culture shock every time I went East or Northeast of the city, and I wasn't the only one. Many of my friends and family felt the same way. The first time I went to Beaumont I felt like I might as well have gone to another country. Maybe your experience was/is different, and I'm perplexed as to why, but that's your business, not mine. All I know is that my view on this isn't some "freakish" perspective. I've encountered too many other people who feel the exact same way about it as I do.
We're making distinctions here between the South and the deep South. I never once said it wasn't Southern.
I understand. But the reason I constantly debate these points with people is because no one can ever tell me what Deep South attributes are absent from Houston. All they can ever tell me is what Houston has that can't be found in the Deep South, and, as you yourself said, that exact same argument can be made for Atlanta. It's likely that I'll never get a real answer.
Even once you get outside of discussing the major cities, every single person who usually participates in these debates has their own definition of what the Deep South is. No two people seem to agree on any specific barriers. I still insist that my definition is the most historically and culturally conclusive, and feel that I have objectively demonstrated this repeatedly, but I'm learning to live with opposing opinions. A while back I told myself that this was one topic I wasn't allowed to participate in, since people don't seem to respond well to me telling them that they're wrong.
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You usually do.
Hey, you disagree with me quite often as well
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