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"Northern shore towns you're the red headed children of NYC, you are not like upper Virginian suburbs because New Yorkers avoid you like the plague".
Now keep repeating it enough times and maybe it'll come true.
A little disingenuous. Hudson County is basically at the same density/size as the City of Boston. It's about 1/3 the size and about the same density as Philadelphia. It's about 1/4 the size and about the same density as Chicago. It's smaller in population and significantly less in density than SF. None of the aforementioned cities are on the same size/density level as Queens or Brooklyn, let alone Manhattan. So at the end of the day, there is a *huge* difference between New York City and NNJ. And overall, NNJ may be at similar metro density and have similar levels of density overall as some of the other great cities (eg Chicago, LA, SF, Philly, Boston, etc), but like LA in particular, it's so multi-nodal and spread around a lot of smaller towns, filled in by relative density, so far as suburbs go, in between. The difference between a NNJ and a Philly for instance is that while NNJ has Newark, Hoboken, Jersey City, and other "CBD"/dense walkable transit served areas, none are on the same level as Center City.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder
^^Union City, West New York and Guttenberg are significantly denser than SF proper, as well as Queens and Brooklyn. What is SF's densest tract? Because Hudson County, along with Bergen, Essex and Passaic counties, has municipalities that exceed SF proper. A little "disingenuous" to gloss over the densest cities in the country in your comparisons. And at the end of the day, the difference between NYC and NNJ, when excluding suburban areas that weight NNJ counties' density down, is quite negligible, despite NNJ being so multi-nodal. An apples to apples density comparison between NNJ cities and NYC, despite NYC's much greater population, comes across more evenly. As far as NNJ CBDs matching Philly's Center City, few CBDs in the country do, much less an area as multi-nodal as NNJ. You could combine NNJs CBDs and they wouldn't come close to Philly. I don't see where you're going with this point. Hammering home the multi-nodal point maybe?
Before you a) pick on my post and ask why I'm making an argument, and b) pick on SF needlessly as if my whole post were discussing it when clearly that is not the case, READ THE PRIOR POSTING HISTORY.
Also, you just made points in your post as if I wasn't already saying the same thing. Please read my post more carefully before responding to it.
To answer your other questions/statements:
1.
Union City is a full 1.3 sq mi with 66,000 people (density of <60,000 ppsm). There are larger areas of SF, Chicago, and heck, Los Angeles with greater density. Densest tract in SF? There are 5 or 6 > 100,000 people, 2-3 of which are greater than 150,000 ppsm. So, umm, yea. Boston also has 1-2 tracts over 100,000 ppsm. SF, Chicago, and Boston all have material populations that live > 60,000 ppsm.
Guttenberg, NJ is a massive 0.2 sq mi with a density also of <60,000 ppsm.
Very few individual municipalities in NNJ have densities > than SF, or the core of Chicago. And the ones that do are very small municipalities.
HOW ARE THESE COMPARABLE IN ANY WAY TO CHICACO, SF, BOSTON, DC, LA, etc?
What's more comparable is the entire county that was originally used (not by me) as a reference:
Hudson County, NJ (Jersey City is county seat)
46.19 sq mi
660,282
14,295 ppsm
Essex County, NJ
126.212 sq mi
789,565
6,327 ppsm
Union County, NJ (Newark is county seat)
102.86 sq mi
543,976
5,289 ppsm
Bergen County, NJ (Elizabeth is county seat)
233 sq mi
925,328
3,971 ppsm
Passaic County, NJ (Paterson is county seat)
184.59 sq mi
505,672
2,739 ppsm
Middlesex County, NJ (New Brunswick is county seat)
308.91 sq mi
828,919
2,683 ppsm
Somerset County, NJ (Somerville is county seat)
301.81 sq mi
350,585
1,162 ppsm
Morris County, NJ (Morristown is county seat)
460.18 sq mi
499,397
1,085 ppsm
Total
5,103,724
1,764 sq mi
2,894 ppsm
At an individual level, NONE of these counties is comparable to Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, or SF, and only a couple are comparable to Boston/DC on a population density metric combined with population.
What's clear, and what I mentioned before, is that you have NOTHING in NNJ comparable to a DT Chicago, DT DC, DT SF, DT LA, DT Boston, or many major cities' downtowns. You also don't have the educational institutions that these other cities/metros have. You also don't have the cultural amenities. Big city shopping or world class shopping? Again, nothing that compares to what these cities have.
And if you want to compare GDPs, be my guest
Finally, if you want to say but the population is x large, comparable to DC Metro, etc (another comparison from the first page). Go ahead. That is true. It's also denser. However, it's not nearly as dense and not as large as Cook County, IL, or LA County, or the developed areas of the Bay Area, which have the 2nd highest weighted average density of metro areas (behind LA).
This isn't a knock on NNJ, which despite the stereotype is absolutely beautiful, about as diverse as it can possibly get, and with a storied history largely ignored by the public. However, NNJ is a large, important suburban area of Greater New York City and as such cannot directly compete with the other great cities/metros of this country.
2.
Is it more apples to apples to compare individual closer in/denser municipalities to NYC? Only on a density level, and even then not as much as you think.
In terms of weighted average density, NNJ is one of the densest areas in this country, but not nearly on the level of 3/5 of the Boroughs of NYC, and not as dense as a couple other areas in this country (LA, Bay Area).
At the end of the day, you beat around the bush and more or less agreed with my post, but questioned who/what I was arguing against. Instead of seemingly trying to pick an online fight with me, how about reading the prior posts?
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,171,933 times
Reputation: 2925
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist
Before you a) pick on my post and ask why I'm making an argument, and b) pick on SF needlessly as if my whole post were discussing it when clearly that is not the case, READ THE PRIOR POSTING HISTORY.
Also, you just made points in your post as if I wasn't already saying the same thing. Please read my post more carefully before responding to it.
To answer your other questions/statements:
1.
Union City is a full 1.3 sq mi with 66,000 people (density of <60,000 ppsm). There are larger areas of SF, Chicago, and heck, Los Angeles with greater density. Densest tract in SF? There are 5 or 6 > 100,000 people, 2-3 of which are greater than 150,000 ppsm. So, umm, yea. Boston also has 1-2 tracts over 100,000 ppsm. SF, Chicago, and Boston all have material populations that live > 60,000 ppsm.
Guttenberg, NJ is a massive 0.2 sq mi with a density also of <60,000 ppsm.
Very few individual municipalities in NNJ have densities > than SF, or the core of Chicago. And the ones that do are very small municipalities.
HOW ARE THESE COMPARABLE IN ANY WAY TO CHICACO, SF, BOSTON, DC, LA, etc?
What's more comparable is the entire county that was originally used (not by me) as a reference:
Hudson County, NJ (Jersey City is county seat)
46.19 sq mi
660,282
14,295 ppsm
Essex County, NJ
126.212 sq mi
789,565
6,327 ppsm
Union County, NJ (Newark is county seat)
102.86 sq mi
543,976
5,289 ppsm
Bergen County, NJ (Elizabeth is county seat)
233 sq mi
925,328
3,971 ppsm
Passaic County, NJ (Paterson is county seat)
184.59 sq mi
505,672
2,739 ppsm
Middlesex County, NJ (New Brunswick is county seat)
308.91 sq mi
828,919
2,683 ppsm
Somerset County, NJ (Somerville is county seat)
301.81 sq mi
350,585
1,162 ppsm
Morris County, NJ (Morristown is county seat)
460.18 sq mi
499,397
1,085 ppsm
Total
5,103,724
1,764 sq mi
2,894 ppsm
At an individual level, NONE of these counties is comparable to Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, or SF, and only a couple are comparable to Boston/DC on a population density metric combined with population.
What's clear, and what I mentioned before, is that you have NOTHING in NNJ comparable to a DT Chicago, DT DC, DT SF, DT LA, DT Boston, or many major cities' downtowns. You also don't have the educational institutions that these other cities/metros have. You also don't have the cultural amenities. Big city shopping or world class shopping? Again, nothing that compares to what these cities have.
And if you want to compare GDPs, be my guest
Finally, if you want to say but the population is x large, comparable to DC Metro, etc (another comparison from the first page). Go ahead. That is true. It's also denser. However, it's not nearly as dense and not as large as Cook County, IL, or LA County, or the developed areas of the Bay Area, which have the 2nd highest weighted average density of metro areas (behind LA).
This isn't a knock on NNJ, which despite the stereotype is absolutely beautiful, about as diverse as it can possibly get, and with a storied history largely ignored by the public. However, NNJ is a large, important suburban area of Greater New York City and as such cannot directly compete with the other great cities/metros of this country.
2.
Is it more apples to apples to compare individual closer in/denser municipalities to NYC? Only on a density level, and even then not as much as you think.
In terms of weighted average density, NNJ is one of the densest areas in this country, but not nearly on the level of 3/5 of the Boroughs of NYC, and not as dense as a couple other areas in this country (LA, Bay Area).
At the end of the day, you beat around the bush and more or less agreed with my post, but questioned who/what I was arguing against. Instead of seemingly trying to pick an online fight with me, how about reading the prior posts?
Thanks in advance.
- anon
So if I disagree with you, I'm picking a fight? If I challenge your methodology, I haven't read the previous posts? If I mention SF in the context of the thread (this isn't that other, joke thread), suddenly I'm picking on it needlessly? How about no to all three...
I merely mentioned that it would make more sense to compare the, yes, SMALL municipalities of NNJ to the great cities in a conversation that turned to density, rather than the entire NNJ counties (which you so lovingly dissected--thanks). If we're going to compare NNJ to these cities (regarding density) in a City vs City discussion, it would make sense to do an apples-to-apples comparison, and compare the actual CITIES. It's tempting to do a county comparison to a city simply because their size makes them more comparable on paper (i.e. 48 Boston sq mi vs 46 Hudson County sq mi, etc), but that completely skews the comparison--counties don't function like cities, and you know this. Counties by nature include far more suburban areas and are more multi-nodal--not exactly ripe to compare to city propers in a conversation about density.
As far as cultural amenities, world class educational facilities, etc, you seem to sell NNJ short. If we're going to pretend NYC doesn't exist for the sake of discussion (since it more than caters to NNJ with these), NNJ isn't exactly deficient in these categories. Off the top of my head, there's Princeton, Rutgers, and Seton Hall for education, which stack up well to any college in the nation in their respective categories (Ivy, Public, Private). I'm not familiar with NNJ's shopping, so I'll hold my tongue for someone like JerseyGirl, but I highly doubt a metropolitan region of over 5 million can't scrounge up a few Michael Kors or Armanis. Indeed, a quick google search shows a Jersey Gardens that seems fairly upscale and "world class" (highly abused term btw) to me.
Point is, NNJ isn't directly on the level of the great cities of SF, Chi, Bos, Phi, DC, etc. We could argue GDP, downtowns, culture, etc. Neither is NOVA, by your criteria. Regardless if we go to the city level or zoom out to the county level, this remains true. I'm not arguing this point, though I feel you for some reason sell NNJ short (WC bias?). I merely had issues with your density comparisons (why completely gloss over the densest cities in the country as if they don't count because they're too small?). In no way was I beating around the bush or trying to pick a fight with you, although now, given your elitist attitude, I'm far more inclined. Next time, don't try to assume the rationale behind someone else's post, and just stick with the argument.
^ Jersey Gardens is not upscale, and is mostly outlet stores. It is a nice enough mall though. It's located in Elizabeth, which is the county seat in UNION not Bergen. And Newark is the county seat in Essex, anonelitist. It looks like that was just a mistake, though, because you skipped Essex entirely there in naming county seats and continued down the line, off by one for a couple counties.
However, The Mall at Short Hills in Essex County is VERY upscale - Chanel, LV, Dior, Tiffany, Cartier, you name the high end designer it's there. Garden State Plaza in Bergen is also rather upscale, and malls like Menlo Park (NJ's most popular, Middlesex) and Bridgewater (Somerset) are one step down from a mall like Short Hills. NJ is not short on malls by any means. In NE NJ you're no more than 15 mins from at least 2 malls.
Before you a) pick on my post and ask why I'm making an argument, and b) pick on SF needlessly as if my whole post were discussing it when clearly that is not the case, READ THE PRIOR POSTING HISTORY.
Also, you just made points in your post as if I wasn't already saying the same thing. Please read my post more carefully before responding to it.
To answer your other questions/statements:
1.
Union City is a full 1.3 sq mi with 66,000 people (density of <60,000 ppsm). There are larger areas of SF, Chicago, and heck, Los Angeles with greater density. Densest tract in SF? There are 5 or 6 > 100,000 people, 2-3 of which are greater than 150,000 ppsm. So, umm, yea. Boston also has 1-2 tracts over 100,000 ppsm. SF, Chicago, and Boston all have material populations that live > 60,000 ppsm.
Guttenberg, NJ is a massive 0.2 sq mi with a density also of <60,000 ppsm.
Very few individual municipalities in NNJ have densities > than SF, or the core of Chicago. And the ones that do are very small municipalities.
HOW ARE THESE COMPARABLE IN ANY WAY TO CHICACO, SF, BOSTON, DC, LA, etc?
What's more comparable is the entire county that was originally used (not by me) as a reference:
Hudson County, NJ (Jersey City is county seat)
46.19 sq mi
660,282
14,295 ppsm
Essex County, NJ
126.212 sq mi
789,565
6,327 ppsm
Union County, NJ (Newark is county seat)
102.86 sq mi
543,976
5,289 ppsm
Bergen County, NJ (Elizabeth is county seat)
233 sq mi
925,328
3,971 ppsm
Passaic County, NJ (Paterson is county seat)
184.59 sq mi
505,672
2,739 ppsm
Middlesex County, NJ (New Brunswick is county seat)
308.91 sq mi
828,919
2,683 ppsm
Somerset County, NJ (Somerville is county seat)
301.81 sq mi
350,585
1,162 ppsm
Morris County, NJ (Morristown is county seat)
460.18 sq mi
499,397
1,085 ppsm
Total
5,103,724
1,764 sq mi
2,894 ppsm
Thanks in advance.
- anon
I have not been following the debate you guys have been having so I will not comment about that but I just wanted to correct minor thing about the county seats.....
Essex County - County Seat - NEWARK
Union County - County Seat - ELIZABETH
Bergen County - County Seat - HACKENSACK
False on both counts. New Yorkers are a large part of what drives the residential market and NNJ has long been a destination point for folks moving out of the city.
That's not what he meant. New Yorkers don't go to Jersey often because (a) many don't have cars, (b) tolls are high and (c) traffic is horrendous. In DC, it's common for residents--many of whom own cars--to drive to Pentagon City or Tyson's Corner, VA to go shopping.
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