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One thing to point out here as well, MSP has a lot of ex-Michiganders. Somehow I doubt the opposite is true for Detroit (has a lot of ex-Minnesotans). I know from being tied to the corporate world in Minneapolis, that a lot of the companies actively recruited in Michigan for the simple fact: People there wanted money and weren't as adverse to moving to Minneapolis with its harsh reputation of winters.
I still don't think of MSP as the second city, but it's definitely close and the only thing keeping Detroit is legacy and history and maybe her international connections with Canada. But one thing about being the second city is where people are more likely to move to (after the first city of course). For example, people in the midwest are more likely to move to Chicago than any other midwestern city.
I don't care.....to me places are about PEOPLE and Minneapolis is far from being the second city in terms of population. Other than than people......it really becomes about money and class. Which area is more prosperous....essentially. On a per capita metric, that is Minneapolis, but that all ignores the greater cost of living in the Twin Cities than in Detroit.
When you have an area that is about 20% African American and African Americans in this country have 3 times the rate of poverty, twice the rate of unemployment and 15 times less wealth than whites, Juxtaposing a metro area that is 20% AA, with over a million of them, to a metro area that is about 5% black...obviously the white area is going to have the greater per capita income, wealth and GDP.
I don't care.....to me places are about PEOPLE and Minneapolis is far from being the second city in terms of population. Other than than people......it really becomes about money and class. Which area is more prosperous....essentially. On a per capita metric, that is Minneapolis, but that all ignores the greater cost of living in the Twin Cities than in Detroit.
Population counts, but not 100%. Economy does as well, as does name recognition, and historical clout.
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When you have an area that is about 20% African American and African Americans in this country have 3 times the rate of poverty, twice the rate of unemployment and 15 times less wealth than whites, Juxtaposing a metro area that is 20% AA, with over a million of them, to a metro area that is about 5% black...obviously the white area is going to have the greater per capita income, wealth and GDP.
Who cares if blacks are poorer, what are you trying to say? That because blacks are poorer we should give Detroit a pass for a worse economy?
My mistake--though the greater point is still that the vast majority of the metro population and GDP is on the US side. You'd have to add a lot more people and industry to the other side to get close to that order of magnitude difference. Are Windsor and Essex county going through a massive population boom right now?
I don't care.....to me places are about PEOPLE and Minneapolis is far from being the second city in terms of population. Other than than people......it really becomes about money and class. Which area is more prosperous....essentially. On a per capita metric, that is Minneapolis, but that all ignores the greater cost of living in the Twin Cities than in Detroit.
When you have an area that is about 20% African American and African Americans in this country have 3 times the rate of poverty, twice the rate of unemployment and 15 times less wealth than whites, Juxtaposing a metro area that is 20% AA, with over a million of them, to a metro area that is about 5% black...obviously the white area is going to have the greater per capita income, wealth and GDP.
If it's that cut and dry to you, then why not just make a separate thread about which area has the second largest population in the Midwest? The OP asked for importance and listed several criteria by which he meant. If you're just looking for people, or even for which one has the larger AA population, make that topic.
My mistake--though the greater point is still that the vast majority of the metro population and GDP is on the US side. You'd have to add a lot more people and industry to the other side to get close to that order of magnitude difference. Are Windsor and Essex county going through a massive population boom right now?
Windsor also has a strong Auto industry presence and if the population is 390,000 in the metro, that is 70,000 more than the 2011 figure of a little bit over 319,000.
Yes, and even within the rust belt, Detroit has become underestimated, undervalued and marginalized. I can tell you wwith confidences that if the million blacks in metro Detroit were white....nobody would be asking the question of who wears the crown of second place.
It is not the fault of those who live in Detroit that the city has fallen to the level it has. If you want to argue that the degree to which we as a nation have allowed one of our great cities to deteriorate represents a systemic racism, I'm in agreement. If you want to say that the disparaging attitudes and statements which are often directed at Detroit reflect that institutionalized racism, I'm with you.
If you want to argue that Detroit maintains the "#2 in The Midwest" position based upon a larger CSA or MSA population, fair enough. Likewise, if you feel that Detroit is #2 based upon the amount of trade with Canada, the city's historic role in manufacturing, CSA-level GDP, or even Detroit's history as a Black mecca; those are all reasonable criteria to consider.
However, this statement.....
Quote:
I can tell you wwith confidences that if the million blacks in metro Detroit were white....nobody would be asking the question of who wears the crown of second place.
.....is absolutely ludicrous. As a debate tactic, this is a blatant ad hominem argument. You'd need to start shouting "Hitler" or "NAZI" or "fascist" or "Marxist" to be any more obvious and irrelevant.
Washington, Atlanta, and Charlotte all have larger MSA percentages of African Americans than does Detroit. Philadelphia, Miami, and Chicago are all close to Detroit in overall metro area African American population. Cleveland and St Louis aren't far behind. Yet, I've never heard anyone suggest that these cities are somehow placed at a competitive disadvantage when assessing economic vitality, urban amenities, or any other objective criteria by which comparisons are typically made; simply because of the number of Black people who live there. In fact, doing so would, in itself, be offensive to those very same African Americans.
What you argue, in effect, is that anyone who disagrees with your suggestion that Detroit is #2--indeed, anyone who even dares to consider the possibility that it is not--is, by definition, a racist. On a level of respect for your fellow posters in this thread, the majority of whom disagree with you, your above-quoted statement is both arrogant and highly-offensive.
Racism is a very real thing which represents a daily obstacle to those affected by it. It is embedded in our culture, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out or discussing it. However, it isn't an objectively relevant part of the question asked by the OP.
If it's that cut and dry to you, then why not just make a separate thread about which area has the second largest population in the Midwest? The OP asked for importance and listed several criteria by which he meant. If you're just looking for people, or even for which one has the larger AA population, make that topic.
Importance based upon whose criteria...his? Look...I stated before that If the Major Corporations of Detroit went under, it would have a greater ripple of impact on the national economy than if the major corporations based in the Twin Cities went under. The Detroit area is much more important in regards to international trade, being a major international trade border and such. You can reach more people, as a distribution point, from Detroit, than you can from Minneapolis. There are 46 million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, making it a much more economical distribution hub. You cannot reach half that many people from Minneapolis. In the 8000 plus square miles that make of the TC MSA, Detroit has a third more people and if you added the there economic activity to the GDP, it would make it significantly higher than the TC GDP.
Now....if you want to start a thread about who has the best economy....then the TC economy is better than that of Chicago too...but might not be as good as Madison, WI. A good economy, in my opinion, has nothing to do with what makes a city the second city of the Midwest. To me, its still about the people.
It is not the fault of those who live in Detroit that the city has fallen to the level it has. If you want to argue that the degree to which we as a nation have allowed one of our great cities to deteriorate represents a systemic racism, I'm in agreement. If you want to say that the disparaging attitudes and statements which are often directed at Detroit reflect that institutionalized racism, I'm with you.
If you want to argue that Detroit maintains the "#2 in The Midwest" position based upon a larger CSA or MSA population, fair enough. Likewise, if you feel that Detroit is #2 based upon the amount of trade with Canada, the city's historic role in manufacturing, CSA-level GDP, or even Detroit's history as a Black mecca; those are all reasonable criteria to consider.
However, this statement.....
.....is absolutely ludicrous. As a debate tactic, this is a blatant ad hominem argument. You'd need to start shouting "Hitler" or "NAZI" or "fascist" or "Marxist" to be any more obvious and irrelevant.
Washington, Atlanta, and Charlotte all have larger MSA percentages of African Americans than does Detroit. Philadelphia, Miami, and Chicago are all close to Detroit in overall metro area African American population. Cleveland and St Louis aren't far behind. Yet, I've never heard anyone suggest that these cities are somehow placed at a competitive disadvantage when assessing economic vitality, urban amenities, or any other objective criteria by which comparisons are typically made; simply because of the number of Black people who live there. In fact, doing so would, in itself, be offensive to those very same African Americans.
What you argue, in effect, is that anyone who disagrees with your suggestion that Detroit is #2--indeed, anyone who even dares to consider the possibility that it is not--is, by definition, a racist. On a level of respect for your fellow posters in this thread, the majority of whom disagree with you, your above-quoted statement is both arrogant and highly-offensive.
Racism is a very real thing which represents a daily obstacle to those affected by it. It is embedded in our culture, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out or discussing it. However, it isn't an objectively relevant part of the question asked by the OP.
People flocked to those higher black metro areas because of corporate relocation that sought to take advantage of lower taxes, lower regulation and write to work laws or they flock to DC because of government jobs. People tend to follow jobs and jobs shifted South seeking the path of least resistance to profit. People followed....whites followed....blacks followed. Chicago has maintained "white urbanity" , as a result of Chicago's segregation manifesting within the city limits between the North and South/West sides. Today's trends among many whites, particularly the younger generation, is urban living, with dense walkable communities, good public transit, culture entertainment and the like. The problem with Detroit is that segregation took place between the city and suburbs and so there are few white areas of urbanity in the city of Detroit that makes Detroit attractive to whites. Thus, my point is and was that if Detroit has essentially remained a lot whiter......it would have a lot more white urbanity today that would be attractive to whites like there exist in Chicago and the other places you mentioned. Today, Detroit, being 85% black, is not attractive to 90% of white people.....as is, while an 85% white Detroit WOULD BE.
Importance based upon whose criteria...his? Look...I stated before that If the Major Corporations of Detroit went under, it would have a greater ripple of impact on the national economy than if the major corporations based in the Twin Cities went under. The Detroit area is much more important in regards to international trade, being a major international trade border and such. You can reach more people, as a distribution point, from Detroit, than you can from Minneapolis. There are 46 million people within a 300 mile radius of Detroit, making it a much more economical distribution hub. You cannot reach half that many people from Minneapolis. In the 8000 plus square miles that make of the TC MSA, Detroit has a third more people and if you added the there economic activity to the GDP, it would make it significantly higher than the TC GDP.
Now....if you want to start a thread about who has the best economy....then the TC economy is better than that of Chicago too...but might not be as good as Madison, WI. A good economy, in my opinion, has nothing to do with what makes a city the second city of the Midwest. To me, its still about the people.
Well, yea. That's the topic--OP asks a question which is the topic. I figured that's how forums work.
And talking about a 300 mile radius of Detroit doesn't make much sense in a metro to metro comparison. I feel like the argument with you isn't so much about the topic as it is to say Detroit is better in any way regardless of what is being discussed which is unfortunately not very entertaining or enlightening =^(
I also don't agree with your statement if you're talking about heavy manufacturing as the major industry in Detroit. One probably salient point in terms of why Detroit, and the rust belt in general, went through such a hard time was because of the belief that the automotive industry and its associated industries, and heavy manufacturing in general, was somehow going to be able to weather all competition from abroad.
The fact was it was completely possible to do much of it elsewhere had pretty dire ramifications (one of the big three is now completely a subsidiary of a foreign company; US market share of global automobile production is way down and isn't really looking to go through much growth in absolute numbers). If Detroit, or any city, doesn't adjust fast enough and take care to pave way for the future, but rather holds itself and its industries up as sacred cows, well, it's probably going to be or continue to be a rocky road ahead. The Twin Cities highly diversified economy is a huge boon. The good thing is there always seems to be snippets of good news about Detroit in regards to this or that company headquarters getting relocated to downtown Detroit and feel good articles about people setting up shop in Detroit due to the low cost of living and real estate.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-21-2015 at 12:17 PM..
Well, yea. That's the topic--OP asks a question which is the topic. I figured that's how forums work.
And talking about a 300 mile radius of Detroit doesn't make much sense in a metro to metro comparison. I feel like the argument with you isn't so much about the topic as it is to say Detroit is better in any way regardless of what is being discussed which is unfortunately not very entertaining or enlightening =^(
I also don't agree with your statement if you're talking about heavy manufacturing as the major industry in Detroit. One probably salient point in terms of why Detroit, and the rust belt in general, went through such a hard time was because of the belief that the automotive industry and its associated industries, and heavy manufacturing in general, was somehow going to be able to weather all competition from abroad.
The fact was it was completely possible to do much of it elsewhere had pretty dire ramifications (one of the big three is now completely a subsidiary of a foreign company; US market share of global automobile production is way down and isn't really looking to go through much growth in absolute numbers). If Detroit, or any city, doesn't adjust fast enough and take care to pave way for the future, but rather holds itself and its industries up as sacred cows, well, it's probably going to be or continue to be a rocky road ahead. The Twin Cities highly diversified economy is a huge boon. The good thing is there always seems to be snippets of good news about Detroit in regards to this or that company headquarters getting relocated to downtown Detroit and feel good articles about people setting up shop in Detroit due to the low cost of living and real estate.
It is, 300 mile radius, important based upon the criteria of which area is more important. That is why it is listed as one of the selling points in the Detroit area chamber of commerce. In fact, you will find that the 300 mile radius or 150 mile radius population reachable from a city is an often used selling point in a cities chamber of commerce. If it was not an important fact, it would not be mentioned by chambers of commerce. No?
It's my opinion that the US economy peaked when manufacturing was at it's strongest in the US. After the decline of manufacturing, we became a debt based economy where we consume much more than we produce, hence creating massive trade deficits (the largest trade deficit in the nation) and hence the largest debtor nation on the planet. Why has China boomed? It has boomed because of its manufacturing exports. Germany is strong because its manufacturing exports. Exporting more than you import, in dollar value, is how income and wealth is transferred from one country to the next. Thus, the real meat and potatoes economy is that which creates exports that bring monies into the country from outside the country, increasing the overall income of the country. In that respect, exports, the Detroit Metro economy still brings in twice that of the Twin Cities economy. Trade.gov - Top 50 Metro Area Exporters
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