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People are always crying about this. I've learned to just ignore it now. Bottom line, NYC has more pull, power, and appeal. It's just how it is. Philly will never be equal and the metro region designations reflect that and probably always will. The cities are just too close together and one will inevitably come out on top.
So now you use New York to your advantage when you were putting it down in earlier posts calling New Yorkers arrogant. Philly still pulls in more New Jersey residents for cultural amenities, shopping, sports, schools, than vice versa, and it's going to stay just like that. There is no reason for New Yorkers or Philadelphians to travel to New Jersey, so boost on.
Nielsen ratings verify the Philly backers argument that it gets shortchanged in the msa/cmsa rakings. Philadelphias sphere of influence is enormous spanning populated areas including the Eastern 1/3 of Pa, All of South Jersey , much of Central Jersey, and the entire state of Delaware.
The Neilsen DMA ranking has Philly's pull closer to Chicago than Washington DC,Bos,SF are to Philly.
So does Atlanta get short changed, as well? Look how large its DMA is, and ranked relative to its MSA or CSA. Its DMA must reach further than Atlanta's CSA. Perhaps it includes Chattanooga or down to Columbus or Macon. This doesn't mean that Atlanta's MSA or CSA boundaries should necessarily increase from the near 10,000 sq mi they cover now.
There are arguably more workers commuting from Alameda County to Santa Clara/San Jose than there are to San Fran. Does that mean Oakland is a part of the San Jose MSA? Of course not. San Fran/Oakland have always shared an historical relationship , commuting is down on the list in order of closeness to sibling cities. Same concept with Philly/Trenton.
I am pretty sure there are not. SF still pulls more people from Alameda county than San Jose, otherwise the census would indeed re-designate the MSA areas in the Bay area.
Quote:
If you take out the connecting counties in Central Jersey(Hunterdon/Middlesex/Somerset) the Mercer worker flows are about even to Philly and NYC/North Jersey msa's.
No they are not even. The flows from Mercer county into NYC MSA are three times larger than into Philly MSA. There are more people commuting directly from Mercer county to Manhattan than there are commuting into Philadelphia or even Bucks county. By the way, Philly doesn't even have enough pull on Trenton to reach the CSA status, so even if for some reason the commuter flow to NYC is cut off, Trenton still would NOT join Philly CSA, Mercer county would become its own Trenton-Princeton MSA, separate from Philly CSA.
part of NE Georgia...my ABC station is out of Asheville, NC - local weather reporting is crazy here due to significant elevation change - the lower Upstate may be sunny/mild while it's heavily snowing in Asheville
Oh thats right I forgot about that! Yeah the ABC station is Asheville, NBC is Greenville, and CBS is Spartanburg...I think the media market covers all of Western NC west of Charlotte, all of Upstate SC basically everything NW of Columbia, and then the parts you live in in NE Georgia.
Yeah youre right about the weather, with the mountains and the large geographic area its pretty much all over the place here!
There are arguably more workers commuting from Alameda County to Santa Clara/San Jose than there are to San Fran. Does that mean Oakland is a part of the San Jose MSA? Of course not. San Fran/Oakland have always shared an historical relationship , commuting is down on the list in order of closeness to sibling cities. Same concept with Philly/Trenton.
If you take out the connecting counties in Central Jersey(Hunterdon/Middlesex/Somerset) the Mercer worker flows are about even to Philly and NYC/North Jersey msa's.
You've been on an anti-NYC, anti-SF binge as of late to the point of trolling. Severely.
From Alameda County, 75K commute to San Francisco County and 37K commute to San Mateo County, and 14K commute to Contra Costa County, 3 of the 4 other counties in SF's MSA. 65K commute to Santa Clara County, down from 70K in 2000.
When you look at all the commute patterns, you can realize that like SoCal, the entire Bay Area is super cohesive. It's actually ridiculously silly to have it broken into 2 separate MSAs. While San Francisco as a city is certainly a top 5 urban area with a top 5 largest downtown in the country, hinting that it's super central to a top 5 metro area, the Bay Area is actually very scattered and multi-nodal. There is intense commuting from all 6 main counties to all 5 of the other counties in the area.
The central county or counties of a
CBSA are those counties that:
(a) Have at least 50 percent of their
population in urban areas of at least
10,000 population; or
(b) Have within their boundaries a
population of at least 5,000 located in a
single urban area of at least 10,000
population.
A central county is associated with
the urbanized area or urban cluster that
accounts for the largest portion of the
county’s population. The central
counties associated with a particular
urbanized area or urban cluster are
grouped to form a single cluster of
central counties for purposes of
measuring commuting to and from
potentially qualifying outlying counties.
Section 3. Outlying Counties
A county qualifies as an outlying
county of a CBSA if it meets the
following commuting requirements:
(a) At least 25 percent of the workers
living in the county work in the central
county or counties of the CBSA; or
(b) At least 25 percent of the
employment in the county is accounted
for by workers who reside in the central
county or counties of the CBSA.
A county may be included in only one
CBSA. If a county qualifies as a central
county of one CBSA and as outlying in
another, it falls within the CBSA in
which it is a central county. A county
that qualifies as outlying to multiple
CBSAs falls within the CBSA with
which it has the strongest commuting
tie, as measured by either 3(a) or 3(b)
above. The counties included in a CBSA
must be contiguous; if a county is not
contiguous with other counties in the
CBSA, it will not fall within the CBSA.
Section 4. Merging of Adjacent Core Based Statistical Areas
Two adjacent CBSAs will merge to
form one CBSA if the central county or
counties (as a group) of one CBSA
qualify as outlying to the central county
or counties (as a group) of the other
CBSA using the measures and
thresholds stated in 3(a) and 3(b) above.
Santa Clara County does not meet 25% threshold either for commuting in from one of the 5 SF/Oakland MSA counties, or commuting out.
It's about 23% for commuters living in one of the 5 SF/Oakland MSA counties and working in Santa Clara County.
And it's about 12% for commuters leaving Santa Clara County to one of the 5 SF/Oakland MSA counties.
Between the two, that translates to 318K people coming and going between SJ MSA and SF MSA each day, which is actually the lowest of the Bay Area commute patterns in terms of % (not lowest in terms of numbers), but it's still a huge number (that alone is higher than the total employment number of most urban counties in the US)
So it doesn't fit the commute bill given that SJ is not considered a "Central County" as defined above. When the definition of Urban Area as defined by the OMB and measured by the Census was changed at the same time around a decade ago, maybe 12-14 years ago, SJ became a separate Urban Area, and thus no longer became a "Central County" to the SF/Oakland network, and thus at best could only become an "Outlying County". It's just shy of the commute pattern to meet that criteria, and thus a whole new CBSA was formed.
The commute patterns for two CBSAs to form one PCSA (CSA) are that there must be a 15% commute pattern between the two CBSAs (county to county specifics or central county to central county specifics not required). That's very easily met for SJ and SF MSAs.
Note that BART is being extended into DT SJ and Caltrain is being expanded/electrified. There will come a time rather soon that even under new criteria, SF/Oakland and SJ will be rejoined as one MSA. All 5 of SF/Oakland's counties are considered "Central Counties", so with SF being more of a principal central county to its surroundings despite all the people that commute SJ's county, SJ will likely soon become an "Outlying County" to SF/Oakland and the area will become one MSA. It's either that, or the definition of Urban Area and/or the criteria separating SF and SJ as two Urban Areas will change and all of a sudden SJ will become a "Central County" in a singular MSA once again, and if that happens, expect 1-2 additional counties to then become part of the MSA.
Last edited by anonelitist; 09-23-2015 at 01:13 PM..
No they are not even. The flows from Mercer county into NYC MSA are three times larger than into Philly MSA. There are more people commuting directly from Mercer county to Manhattan than there are commuting into Philadelphia or even Bucks county.
You're confused.I'll post the data when I get a chance. Its basically a wash when you take out the Central Jersey Counties.
I know the debated territory pretty well between NYC/Philly. I grew up along the river up the river in Bucks County. Bucks is a rural county once you leave the older inner suburbs. This holds true for the county across the river, Mercer County too. What I think some of the NY/NNJ don't understand (also a reason why I think rainrock is so passionate) is our "inner suburbs" push up right against Trenton. New York and Philadelphia's "Levittown's" are pretty famous suburbs, also where my mom grew up, and Philadelphia's is basically right next to Trenton. Honestly look at NE Philly on a map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/No...6708900cf1d2fa
It might be 20 miles from the city if that. When we watch the 6 o'clock news and a big water main break happened in Trenton, it is on our news. However, a major aspect of Trenton, and Princeton for that matter, is that they are on highways leading straight to NY/NNJ. Over time, this obviously has become a big factor of Mercer county's growth. I am not surprised at all the MSA designation switched from being in Philly's region to NYC's 20 years ago. Mercer county is NYC's territory overall even though they eat hoagies and watch NBC10. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple townships still leaned more towards Philadelphia in terms of commuting patterns.
Allentown/Bethleham/Easton is sort of the same story. The Leigh Valley is adjacent to the north of The Delaware Valley and its main city, Allentown, is 50 Miles North of Philly and 90 miles southwest of NYC. Allentown was founded by a mayor of Philadelphia named William Allen. Allentown has it's own historical claim to fame as the city in which the Liberty Bell was stored in hiding. Bethlehem was a small prosperous town that was at the right spot between the two cities to become the World's largest ironworks and factory. U.S. Steel produced more of basically everything than other town/city, and the real kicker is that U.S. Steel was a Pittsburgh company. You would be surprised how popular the Steelers are in that area and I always figured it was due to that fact. Easton was the closest city to me. Easton was founded by Thomas Penn and is most noted for being home to Crayola Crayons. However, it grew because of being built at the convergence of 3 canals the Leigh, Delaware, and Morris . The Delaware and the Morris ran to Philly and NYC respectfully.
However, the demographics of the Leigh Valley were always heavily Pennsylvania Dutch/German. That differs drastically to the Irish/Italian immigrants of the coastal cities so culturally they really stand on their own even though they to eat hoagies at Primo's and watch the Eagles/Giants/Jets/Steelers/Dallas.
Basically the point I am trying to make is that the Leigh Valley/Mercer County have always been culturally there own areas while being slightly more aligned with Philly. As time has gone and rural areas have suburbanized and I-95/I-78 were built, the flow of everything has shifted towards NYC. Central Jersey is still very rural. I know Hunterdon County best by far and it is straight up horse country while being very rural. It is apart of the Newark MSA so it gets folded into NYC too.
All in all, I don't really think Philly gets "shortchanged" in GDP/Population rankings because it doesn't matter in reality. Between NYC and Philly is a meeting grounds of both cultures blended with the unique cultures of the Leigh Valley and Jersey.
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